What the heck is going on here? How can this be happening? Is there some mistake, something we are missing?
Here is Archbishop Pietro Sambi, Papal Nuncio to the United States, lighting a Hindu devotional lamp (upon a traditional Indian rangoli) before two idols of Hindu deities. A rangoli is a painting claimed by Hindus as fashioned by the pagan Brahma deity. Was he led to view this ceremonial as a secular symbolism for peace?
Either things are not as they seem or he was momentarily deceived by the hosts, who were themselves ignorant of Catholic teaching and practice. The nuncio is a good and holy shepherd. I have no doubt about this. Nevertheless, I am still left shaking my head as to how one could do something that would ordinarily be judged as an active participation in false worship, an unspeakable Brahmanism?
I am reminded of the diwali lamp that the Hindus use at festival. What we have here is similar, an Indian oil lamp. I am at a loss for words to explain it. I am well aware of the InterFaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington. I regularly receive their newsletter and mailings. Dialogue to preserve the peace and to work together on projects important to the community I can understand. But we cannot join in pagan prayer with idol worshippers and polytheists.
The photograph here was taken at the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center, a defunct museum now desperately searching for bookings and income to pay the forty million dollar debt of its construction.
This was the IFC’s 2nd Annual Bridge Builders Awards, honoring Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus who have performed outstanding “inter-religious” work. Archbishop Sambi helped to present the awards and engaged in a “private” discussion with the guests.
http://www.ifcmw.org/default.asp?page=bridge_builders_photos_1
Dialogue is one thing, but lighting the candle was a definite mistake. I can only hope that the Catholics in attendance did not participate in any non-Christian verbal prayers. It is bad enough that a place dedicated to the late Pope should be contaminated by false worship and idols.
The meaning of the diwali-deepavali lamp varies from place to place. While used at festival, it can also be employed at special celebrations and when awards are given. It is meant to enhance the atmosphere of joy and festivity. The demon king of Lanka is fought off and the divine king Rama and Sita his queen return from exile. A row of lights is an invitation to Laxmi Pooja, the goddess of wealth and prosperity. The lamp reminds the Hindu believer that enlightenment and illumination are the goals of life. When used as part of the calendar festival, other deities are invoked on different days. The lamps are symbolic of a spiritual light pervading the world and destroying darkness and ignorance.
Notice here the two idols on the table during the lighting of the lamp. Call me stupid, but I cannot think of any defense for what happened. It was a major miscalculation and those who oppose the post-Vatican II Church will have a field-day with it.
The Hindu cultural meanings and themes are all very interesting, but also very pagan and unchristian. I hope the Vatican will offer some explanation for this happening. Have we not learned anything from that interfaith fiasco at Fatima some years ago?
********** ***** **********
ADDENDUM: Closeup View of One of the Statues
Does anyone recognize it? The opposite one looks similar.
Father is it possible that the archbishop didn’t understand the significance of the lamp? Is it possible that you are overestimating the significance of the lamp? Maybe you should give the archbishop some feedback.
Hi Father Joe,
If Catholics worship one God in the Holy Trinity, and the Hindus worship one God in Brahma, isn’t it common sense that both are worshipping the same God, but in different ways?
Curious,
Catholic Writer
As I look over this picture again this morning, there are tears in my eyes. I want to think that maybe the archbishop was not aware of the religious significance of the candle-lighting. It could be that they imposed upon him without warning to light it and he did so without giving the action sufficient reflection. Given tension and recent hostilities of Hindus toward Catholics in places like India, the archbishop may also have found himself with a no win situation. While such events as this are rarely reported in the American press, they constitute headline news back in Hindu countries. The reverberations for refusing to light the candle would have been colossal. It should have been made clear what the archbishop could and could not do as a Catholic clergyman. Guidelines preventing the candle-lighting should have been contracted in the use of the JP II Center.
Sharon writes: “Is it possible that you are overestimating the significance of the lamp?”
I thought about that possibility too, and yet Catholicism is quite restrictive and clear about such matters. Remember, Catholics cannot even engage “actively” but only “passively” in the Sunday worship of Protestants. Hymn singing is permitted, with reservations, but many worship elements and holy communion is forbidden to Catholics. Further, such participation does not fulfill one’s holy day obligation or duty. I am just a poor priest in a small back water parish. The archbishop represents the Holy See and has had special training in the foreign service of the Church. He should know better than I what is right and wrong. Catholics light candles as well, and the votive lights symbolize our prayer intentions. We also have the vigil light before the reserved sacrament of the Eucharist and the Easter or Paschal Candle. Catholics know the value and place of candles and fire in worship. The archbishop would be the first to appreciate such things. That is why I am pained and befuddled by it all.
Catholic Writer questions: “If Catholics worship one God in the Holy Trinity, and the Hindus worship one God in Brahma, isn’t it common sense that both are worshipping the same God, but in different ways?”
The problem is the presumption of monotheism that you make. Except for certain modern Hindu apologists who argue that all the Hindu deities are expression of a single one; Hinduism is traditionally regarded as a polytheistic religion. In other words, they are not worshipping ONE god but many gods. This is usually their understanding as well. The Trinity is quite different. Catholics believe that there is ONE divine nature (one God) but three divine Persons. While the mythology is quite different, the multiple gods of Hinduism is similar to the ancient pagan gods of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Tertullian and others in the early Church claimed that these false gods had substance and were in actuality, demons. Christians were warned, even in the bible, that they should not eat of the food offered to idols, to the demons.
The Jewish Decalogue forbids the fashioning and worshipping of idols. Catholics use statues to remember Jesus, Mary, Joseph and other saints. However, the Hindu usage of statues is indeed the kind of idolatry condemned by the commandments given to Moses.
Are you beginning to see why this is a pretty big deal and a source of growing embarrassment and scandal?
Right or wrong, “Catholicism is quite restrictive” is the reason for your pain. That much is clear. Believing as you do, this must upset you a lot.
You mentioned that lighting the lamp had different meanings at different times. I sincerely hope that in this instance its meaning is something that does not compromise Christian faith in one God. Protestants share the belief of one God in three Persons with Catholics. That is one thing we do not debate.
Hi Father Joe,
I see what you mean. Based on the interreligious dialogue that’s taken place in my country between representatives of various religions, I’ve always understood Hinduism to be monotheistic with the other deities to be manifestations of Brahman, while the deities are given the same kind of respect that Catholics give to saints. Like some Catholics mistakenly turn to worshipping saints, some Hindus mistakenly turn to worshipping these deities, but these should not be seen as what the religion is really about.
God bless,
Catholic Writer
Stay away from those wacko conservatives like the catholic cavemen. Lighten up. If Jesus were here he wouldn’t be filled with righteous anger at someone lighting a candle and dialoging with pagans. Surely St. Paul probably reached out amongst similar sorts of things even as he upheld the truth of Christ. Beware wrath and uncharity, surely more insidious then a misstep in lighting a candle.
I’ve been reading about the alleged apparitions at Damascus in Syria (apparently approved by the local bishop–I stay away from those that aren’t). The main message there seems to be one of unity (especially between Catholics and Orthodox.) Jesus is reported to have said, “Tell my children, it is from them I ask unity. I will not accept it from those who are only acting; pretending they are working for unity.” When I read your post about the archbishop that was the first thing I thought of–Pretending to be working for unity instead of working for true unity.
Remember Sr.Lucia of Fatima told us not to wait for the bishops to lead us in lives of prayer and mortification? These type of gross errors are so commonplace now. The sad part is that so many Catholics are so poorly catechized that they wouldn’t even be able to tell you why the actions of the Bishop were scandalous. I weep with you Fr.Joe and for my children who have such reckless shepards.
AMEN, Father.
Seems to me that some folks “just ain’t gettin’ it”.
This is some serious stuff.
Perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt..
but..come on..he’s an Archbishop for crying out loud!
I would think that he would be more knowledgeable
than us lay folk. If not, I’m truly scared!
Which bishops can we trust?
Father Joe,
Ugh. I had hopted this Nuncio would avoid the “Be nice,don’t litter.” phenomenon that has stolen our religion.
You ask whether he realizes he is paying homage to a false god. “Be nice and don’t litter”, is borne from the violations of the first and second commandments – priests and bishops who want the flock to adore them. They place the importance of people loving them above everything else, including the vocation of salvation of humanity.
Who among us sits in the pews and knows that the last time words were said to provoke the people in line to get the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ to go to confession and wipe their souls of their sins? If they’re unaware that their path has taken this earth into a spiritual tailspin, then they are perishing. The vocation of priesthood is a spiritual fatherhood. The photo of a papal nuncio lighting a candle to pay homage to a false god is about as sane as a mother and father who set up false images and pay homage to them before they tuck their kids into bed.
Take another look at the picture – he’s laying the salvation of Christ’s people at the foot of a false god and everyone in the picture is as happy as a lark. Spiritual insanity.
“Which bishops can we trust?”
A handful – perhaps a dozen –
+ Vasa
+ Bruskewitz
+ Chaput
+ Burke
among the few
Although I don’t agree with everything Fr. Malachi Martin said, he was right concerning the actions of certain bishops and equating it with unbelief. How can someone do something like this and be a believer of the Gospel? I will pray that the Archbishop is stupid rather than a baptized pagan.
St. Teresa said, “I do not understand the fears of certain persons, who say, The devil, the devil, so long as we can say, God, God, and make Satan tremble.” Relax, the bishop did the right thing. If he had refused to light the candle he would have been no different than those people whe cry the devil, the devil – as you and many of your readers sadly sometimes do.
God bless,
Father Bain
Dear Fr Joe,
I feel a mixture of emotions when I see what this bishop is doing,mostly a deep sadness..Really he is betraying Jesus.He is a shepherd who is supposed to be guarding and leading his sheep towards our Saviour.How are his flock supposed to react-follow him?? I believe totally in love of neighbour, and the Jewish and Muslim faiths certainly worship one God as we do, and we owe a great respect to them, even though we have differences.But I am not afraid to say this,hinduism is dangerous and the worship of false gods is totally against our faith.Please be wise our very souls are at risk.I live in England and our faith is being battered,please proclaim Jesus as our only Lord and Savoiur.May God Bless you all…………
It is hard for me to tell if the Archbishop really knew that he was lighting a candle for idols. Maybe the Archbishop didn’t know. From looking at the picture, the candle looks kind of funny, but it does not appear to be idolatrous. In the bottom picture, there are two dark forms on the right and the left that are hard for me to see that could be some kind of statues. If they are statues, he probably did not recognize them as idols. Some idols seem like harmless statues unless you have been educated as to what they really are. His intention could have been limited to the lighting of a candle, not actually performing an act of worship. At best, this is a case of ignorance coupled with poor judgment. At worse, this is a case of go along to get along idolatry. (If you think about it, it is a form of double idolatry.) In either case, this episode militates against the Archbishop’s fitness for leadership.
Dear Fr. Joe,
Wouldn’t it be prudent to request a private audience with the Papal Nuncio and ask him privately, telling him of your concerns, before making this information, together with your opinions, known to the public? We desparately need unity in the Magisterial teachings of the Church.
I have not looked back at your previous blogs, but did you let your readers know that the Papal Nuncio, in union with the Bishops of the United States, re-consecrated the United States of America to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, on November 11, 2006?
Are we not a Church of Unity? In truth and love?
Father Joe:
The real issue is the JPII Center. They are the hosts. It is their responsibility. If they had been on the job, this wouldn’t have happened.
The Brahmins eat sumptuous meals to the sound of drums, and make the ignorant believe that the gods are banqueting. When they are in need of any supplies, and even before, they give out to the people that the gods are angry because the things they have asked for have not been sent, and that if the people do not take care, the gods will punish them by slaughter, disease, and the assaults of the devils. And the poor ignorant creatures, with the fear of the gods before them, obey them implicitly. These Brahmins have barely a tincture of literature, but they make up for their poverty in learning by cunning and malice. Those who belong to these parts are very indignant with me for exposing their tricks. Whenever they talk to me with no one by to hear them they acknowledge that they have no other patrimony but the idols, by their lies about which they procure their support from the people. They say that I, poor creature as I am, know more than all of them put together.
They often send me a civil message and presents, and make a great complaint when I send them all back again. Their object is to bribe me to connive at their evil deeds. So they declare that they are convinced that there is only one God, and that they will pray to Him for me. And I, to return the favor, answer whatever occurs to me, and then lay bare, as far as I can, to the ignorant people whose blind superstitions have made them their slaves, their imposture and tricks, and this has induced many to leave the worship of the false gods, and eagerly become Christians. If it were not for the opposition of the Brahmins, we should have them all embracing the religion of Jesus Christ.
…
The heathen inhabitants of the country are commonly ignorant of letters, but by no means ignorant of wickedness. All the time I have been here in this country I have only converted one Brahmin, a virtuous young man, who has now undertaken to teach the Catechism to children. As I go through the Christian villages, I often pass by the temples of the Brahmins, which they call pagodas. One day lately, I happened to enter a pagoda where there were about two hundred of them, and most of them came to meet me. We had a long conversation, after which I asked them what their gods enjoined them in order to obtain the life of the blessed. There was a long discussion amongst them as to who should answer me. At last, by common consent, the commission was given to one of them, of greater age and experience than the rest, an old man, of more than eighty years. He asked me in return, what commands the God of the Christians laid on them. I saw the old man’s perversity, and I refused to speak a word till he had first answered my question. So he was obliged to expose his ignorance, and replied that their gods required two duties of those who desired to go to them hereafter, one of which was to abstain from killing cows, because under that form the gods were adored; the other was to show kindness to the Brahmins, who were the worshippers of the gods. This answer moved my indignation, for I could not but grieve intensely at the thought of the devils being worshipped instead of God by these blind heathen, and I asked them to listen to me in turn. Then I, in a loud voice, repeated the Apostles’ Creed and the Ten Commandments. After this I gave in their own language a short explanation, and told them what Paradise is, and what Hell is, and also who they are who go to Heaven to join the company of the blessed, and who are to be sent to the eternal punishments of hell. Upon hearing these things they all rose up and vied with one another in embracing me, and in confessing that the God of the Christians is the true God, as His laws are so agreeable to reason.
-Saint Francis Xavier
Letter from Goa to the Society of Jesus (Rome), 1543
I think the Nuncio needs to read the lives of the saints before walking into another useless Ecumenical social event. Perhaps he’ll be inspired to preach the Gospel as Our Lord commanded.
Dear Fr. Joe,
Thank you for your kind reply. I am definately out of my league in knowledge, etc. to be commenting on this. It sounds like it is possible that good Papal Nuncio may have been set up for someone’s agenda, but the Roman Curia are usually extremely wise when it comes to things like that.
Perhaps it was the Papal Nuncio who ministered to him as St. Francis Xavier did. We only know what the picture shows, we are not privy to their private conversation.
I can only imagine what the Trads and anti-Catholic Protestants would make of this event. I am a convert myself. I have
found that Trads are pretty hateful about everything, and few anti-Catholic Protestants are exeptionally kind to anything Catholic. There are many more very good Protestants who are, however. I have recently been dumped by anti-Catholic relatives who held out hoping I would become Baptist again. I know that not all Baptists are like that. I offer up my heart ache for their conversion and I pray for them. I know that good Protestants go to Heaven as well as Catholics. They suffer from ignorance and not malice.
However, as a lay person I would not want to second guess the Papal Nuncio. My husband and I attended Mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington DC on November 11, 2006. The Papal Nuncio re-consecrated the United States to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, in solidarity with the Bishops of the United States at that time. Fr. Andrew Apostali was the homilist and the Cardinal from Philedelphia was there also. It was an incredible event. It was also our 34th wedding anniversary so that made it even more special for us.
Thank you again for your kind response, Fr. Joe. I will keep you in all of my prayers and I humbly ask for your prayers also.
You are insulting the legacy of St. John Paul the Great…
He did far more loving actions than the Bishop in the photo!!!!
Traditionalist of EXTREMEISM are being used by demonic forces as LIBERALIST…
The darkness will use ANY vehicle, even PIOUSness to wound the DIVINE HEART of JESUS…
WATCH OUT PEOPLE!!!!
+The Most Rev. Richard Saint John
Fort Worth Texas USA
Imagine all the martyrs who went to their deaths, being eaten by lions, raped, tortured, grilled on spits, beheaded, thrown on freezing ponds etc. rather than ”offer homage” to idols as this bishop is doing. How is it that the same Faith that condemned paying homage to idols, asking its people to go to their death rather than light a candle, offer a sacrifice or bow before a false deity can now not only allow but approve of a BISHOP no less, doing the same?
If Christ was righteously angered at the money changers in the temple, what would he do to the idol bringers?
And to those who say ”maybe he didn’t know”, let me ask you which is worse…to have a teache/leader purposefully go against Christianity or have one in authority not know the most basic Judaeo-Christian tenant? Either way he could not be a very good Christian leader even though he is a valid one could he?
May heaven have mercy on us!
Father Joe:
IAM NOT nor EVER said I was the ROMAN Bishop of fort worth or anywhere…. Iam not an imposter/fake or phoney anything.
Iam one of the most honest/kind/loving/sweetnatured/unselfish people you could EVER meet… IAM in fort worth/born here.
IAM a valid consectrated prelate in the apostolic succession(from roman/greek/russian/coptic/
armenian/melkite/atiochian/anlican/utrech). The Holy See/Holy Father whom I revere, upon studing/knowing of me would 100%
respect me as a real/valid/legitimate apostolic bishop…..PERIOD…. Our Divine Lord said not to bear false witness so you either read into my email what you humanly wanted(no sin) or you sinned against the Holy Ghost against my holy orders…. mea cula ea culpa mea maxima culpa
+ The Most Rev Richard Saint John
NOT ROMAN- With all humility and reverence to His Holiness Benedict 16 supreme pontiff.
Reverend Father:
I posted via your reply without having scrolled down
to read all you said.
FIRST: John Paul received the marking on the forehead of shiva in India(PHOTO on INTERNET)> John Paul KISSED the KORAN !!! John Paul received blessing of VOUDON PRIESTS/Hougans in AFRICA JOHN PAUL let DAli Lama priests put statue of BUDDAH on the TABERNACLE in ASSISI. IAM NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would NEVER disrespect your priesthood!!! YOU pulled a FBI search on me like a gestapo nazi….. IAM not unemployed…thankyou…… I have a real job…work my ass off…. I dont use my holy orders to put a roof over my head….I live in the REAL WORLD not a damn rectory with a pious irish lady cleaning my undies. IAM a CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN I profess in humiltas the Blessed Trinity and The DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST ONLY. I respect other faiths…you dont. JOHN PAUL did……. IAM GAY….so are thousands of Roman laity priests religious bishops cardinals and many popes(some were adulterous murderous [deleted] AND STRAIGHT !!!!) You can insult me slander me hate me but you have INSULTED THE HOLY GHOST –Third Person of The Divine and Blessed TRINITY…….you have insulted the dignity of my holy order’s witch have nothing to do with so called heresy/personal sin/lack of JOB. YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING about ME You jumped in the cess-pool of SATAN and drank it up…… YOU ARE A REAL PRIEST but as a human you have shown you feet of clay OH how Glorious the Precious Blood of Our Divine Lord Incarnate on Calvary that froggives ME and YOU… May the Divine Mercy heal your HATRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! St Therese the little Flower ora pro nobis St Padre Pio ora Pro nobis Sancta Maria Mater Dei ora pro nobis
+ Richard Saint John Baptized Roman With reverence to His Holiness Benedict Saint John Paul ora pro nobis
PS I LIVE in FORT WORTH….THANK YOU BORN HERE WORK HERE AND my ADDRESS is SUNSET RD FT WORTH GET YOUR FACTS OF HATRED STRAIGHT LYING/FALSE WITNESS is A MORTAL SIN St Joseph Baltimore Catechism MEA CULPA MEA CULPA MEA MAXIMA CULPA ohhhh if your a post vat 2 kumbaya priest that means through my fault throught my fault through my grievous fault.!!!!!! That bishop of the roman diocese has a priest at my baptismal parish who is more liberal than me Ive gone to his mass(MESS) and wanted to cry cause whats goin on there anint no HOLY SACRIFICE of the MASS SO GO THROW STONES in your own roman backyard padre
A prayer for the blind and who deceive and prayers for those who, with their public mouth bound, must endure (in these times) the Crusifiction of the Church, again, for let not our knowing be the reason for our transgressions.
May the Lord be with you, Father Joe, on your journey to your new parish
Dear Father Joe,
As to the nuncio question, for one to be heretical, one would have to have intent and forethought…
…did he make a mistake?…more than likely…but a mistake leaning towards the good…if his Hindu hosts intended him to worship, they erred, as worship can only be valid if the person intends to worship…which I don’t think the nuncio did…
As to the “Bishop” St. John question…
A bishop has a diocese or is an auxiliary…his original post was intentionally made to seem that he was the bishop of Fort Worth…
His rantings since prove that he is anything but a bishop…
Keep on keepin’ on Father Joe!
YBIC
Rev. Mr. Hector Maldonado
I fail to see or understand the concern here? Roman Catholicism was invented by a pagan (Constantine) and is full of idol worship which is forbidden by Biblical Christianity.
It is my understanding that Roman Catholics believe God left them in charge of truth etc… and thus they are free to define and redefine truth any way they choose.
This being the case, how could the nuncio make a mistake?
Am I wrong?
FATHER JOE,
OBSERVE THE FOLLOWING VERSES AS CONTAINED IN THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. AS A CATHOLIC, I REMEMBER
THE PRIESTS BOWING BEFORE IMAGES OF ‘MARY’ AND OTHERS IN WORSHIP(SERVITUDE).
DURING CATHECHISM, WE WERE ALSO TAUGHT TO PRAY TO THESE SAME IMAGES. UNLESS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS CHANGED, THESE ACTS ARE ALSO IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE COMMANDMENTS.
Exd 20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exd 20:4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
I agree that according to the Commandment, any image made of things on earth or in heaven( e.g. The Cross, Jesus, Mary) must not be made with the intention to venerate, worship, bow down to, pay homage to etc..
Although I can use the prayer just as much as you can,
my aim is not to misrepresent but to point out that what the
Archbishop Pietro Sambi, Papal Nuncio to the United States, did was in keeping with what I had experienced other priest do: lighting of candles, burning of incense and bowing before idols.
Pastor Joe – I am astonished that you are bothered by this? The Catholic Church was founded on the principles of absorbing other religions, adopting their pagan idols and simply renaming them to religious names. The archbishop is being a good Catholic here. You’re own statue of Peter at the Vatican was once Jupiter. And the history behind the icons of Mary holding the infant Jesus strangely resembles Babylonian Seramis and her infant ‘god’-child Tamuz. Give the archbishop a break, he’s settign a good catholic example by worshipping at an idol – could be that in his mind he is calling it something else…
Father Joe,
With the advent of 21s century and availability of free knowledge should help the public (of all faiths) to develop a better understanding of symbolism used in different traditions, and hopefully imbibe united appreciation.
However, I wanted to convey a clarification of the two statues on either side of the lamps, we sometimes use even on our university campus for programs. Those statues are more like courtiers welcoming guests than a symbol of goddess Lakshmi you are mistaking due to your limited knowledge of the Diwali ceremonies.
I hope this helps many of your readers feel better about their archbishop and faith, which I think needs move forward with time representing a true spirit in which Jesus Christ himself believed in changing ritualistic ideas.
Here we go again, the narrow minded, fanatical and arrogant spiritually ignorant Catholics at work.
First of all, the 2 “idols” on each sides of the rangoli are not Hindu Deities, but 2 ladies in a welcoming posture, sometimes used as a welcoming prop.
The Rangoli itself is a Holy diagram (yantra) representing the Universe /Creation, which is the Divine in Manifest form.
Also, the Catholics are indeed idol worshipper as well, bowing and praying to saint statues, Virgin Mary statues and Crucifixes.
In fact no religion is not worshipping idols.
Christians of all denominations are worshipping the Cross, a “graven image” and the bible, a book.
Even the Mohammedans worship and idol, the Kaaba and it’s black stone inside, as well as worshipping a book, the Koran. So don’t be hypocrites!
The “idol” is used as a medium through which one focuses and address the limitless Divine Reality.
It is natural to Humanity, as seen in every religion. It is like when you speak to someone on the telephone, you do not speak TO the telephone, but to someone THROUGH the telephone. Idols/symbols serve that very purpose.
The Human mind needs symbols, through which to communicate with the Divine Reality, in all the infinite forms it reveals itself through.
The Divine Reality is too big, too much above our limited comprehension and therefore, being limitless (something the human mind cannot comprehend), it reveals itself through everything in the universe/creation, which is the Divine in manifest form. So it’s mercy for our limited abilities of comprehention, it can be experienced through many Gods/Goddesses, Gurus, Spirits etc.
Any one who claims to be the only repositary/channel of the Divine Reality, it’s final prophet etc, is putting limits on the limitless and is deluded by the messianic syndrome, delusion caused by the uncontroled ego. The Divine is One, but the ways to It are many. All the rivers go to the ocean, even though they take different paths.
Renounce the gross spiritual ignorance of monotheism, caused by delusions of ego, and surrender the ego to the All encompassing One through the Many! The goal of like is enlightement, and not so called salvation, which is only necessary for the misguided soul which falsely believes in a tyrannical jalous “god” who curses people to eternal damnation because that dictator cannot stand having others worshipped. That jalousy and anger is nothing but very HUMAN FLAWS, nothing Divine at all. WAKE UP!
Your all morons!
All religions are the same period!
Christians have been misled purposely.
The word God in the old Geneva Bible was Elohim.
Elohim…meant male/female and also meant more than one! That mean God was Gods! And any true Jewish man will confirm this.
So logic dictates that anytime you see God in the Bible it actually is Elohim or Gods!
Makes sense when u rationally look at Genesis: “….and let us make man in our own image.” If it were one(some Old Man in the Sky) why the plural?
Angels had nothing to due with the fashioning of man only God. So reason dictates(not religious dogma or lies) that there were more than one……
In Old Testament(Torah….the Old Testament is nothing more than the Torah with a different name) terms this mean Gods are everywhere in the Bible and you dont know what God or Gods were really good and which ones were jerks!!!
Also,makes sense were somwhere later(cant remember the scripture) when Jesus says in the new Testament that “my God is not your God…” to the Jews.
In two terms this means one…they are not actually worshipping God but Satan since they are moeny driven whore mongers and two they could actually worship a whole totaly different God!!
Ill take the later since some Jewish text clearly states(once again..ask an honest Jewish guy..probably not a brainwashed orthodox one but a more secular one) that Leviathan was an old Babolonian god worship by Jews in that time period and still to this day.
Look it all boils down to either you use love,compassion,caring and understanding,sometimes a little tough love or you wanna burn everyone,kill in the name of an unknowable God,yaday yadya yadya……theres two philosophies plain and simple.
Take your pick. Ill take the Jesus,Buddha,Krishna,Tamuz pick and say live and let live,give some tough love when someone needs it…..dont pee on my door step and I wont pee on yours!
Be nice people and thats it…stop all the debate and squabble.
Your caught up in the ritual and literal translation of things instead of the real meat of the point!!! Be nice!!!
Grow up.be honest with yourselves,work on u and dont worry about ur neighbor!
Stop the nonsense….everyone has the same value and worth.
No one person should make more money than anyone else..everyone in the world is important,everyone! In every second of everyday!!!
Obviously my opinion may be biased, given that I’m a Hindu myself. However, please bear with me. This is both a collection of my opinions as well as questions I’m curious about regarding the Catholic faith itself. Forgive my ignorance in advance.
First, I need something cleared up for my own knowledge. While idol worship is condemned within the Judeo-Christian faith, there is no church to my knowledge that does not have an image of Christ upon the cross, at the very least. That, as far as I can tell, is an idol. The same goes for the icons of saints that are ubiquitous among Catholics.
The original intent, as far as I know, for forbidding that the Divine be contained in an image is that in our limited nature, we cannot capture His full essence, so to do so would be a vain act. So why so many crucifixes, paintings, icons, etc.?
Second, if God decreed that “thou shalt have no other god before Me,” then what about the saints? Of course they aren’t exactly “deified” but they are worshiped, no doubt. They are worshiped for what they stand for, whether it’s the protection of children, fertility, animals, or anything else. Of course it can be argued that they are being “venerated.” Yet, the definition given by Merriam Webster is “to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion,” which is not exactly different from worship. How do you differentiate between the two?
Third, and this is more pertinent to your post, what exactly is the big deal? The values espoused by all religions are the same, the rituals though may be different. Does that make one religion more right than another? I wouldn’t necessarily call what happened at the John Paul II Cultural Center an act of, or an endorsement of so-called “false worship.” It is an acceptance of different points of view, regarding praying for knowledge and success, both material and spiritual. Inter-religious dialogue is the only way we can achieve peace. This doesn’t mean necessarily accepting or adopting the views of the other faith, but it does mean respecting their way of life and respecting their right to live it that way. So long as they aren’t causing undue suffering or death, what’s the harm?
Let it be noted, by the way, that it is a gross misinterpretation that Hinduism is a polytheistic faith.
It is, in fact, a monotheistic religion but has evolved to allow its adherents greater spiritual freedom to view God in their own way, hence the seemingly large number of deities. Think of it kind of like having a hundred email addresses but mail sent to any of them is forwarded into one main address. Dorky example, admittedly, but it’s the best I can come up with right now.
I just want to end off by stressing that I have much respect for the Catholic faith. It is a beautiful faith, and I have many friends who are strong believers. I have much respect for what you’re doing, it takes a strong person to write about one’s opinions without cutting corners. I’m just responding as such. Best of luck with everything.
my dear Pagan Catholic friends, who worship countless numbers of saints, images and paintings, and are therefore ignorant polytheistic idol worshippers, those who eat and hack away at the animals of God,
first of all I would like to point out your extremely derogatory tone towards Hindus and Hinduism. You call us idol worshippers, fools deluding others, idol bringers and polytheists. However did you know that Hinduism has only one God, the Lord Vishnu and all of the other gods and goddesses are simply in the Catholic term saints, devotees and worshippers of our one true Lord. We worship these idols and statues, never believing that our Gods are directly before us, but because of the sumbolism, it allows us to view the Lord in our hearts, for his to dwell in our minds,
And so we are as pagan and polytheistic as you are !
It is symbolism, walking around the deity(pradakshina), acknowledging that God is the essence of our lives and beyond, bowing, acknowledging our subordinace to the eternal saviour, eating food that is supposedly blessed by the Lord (prasadam) allows us to be pure and refreshed by his blessing, his blessing to break our sinful bonds and engage in spiritual service to him.
you have been completely misled.
Those two statues are not Hindu deities, they are simply decorative statues of two princesses holding flowers in their hands. It is purely a decorative element and has no religous basis whatsoever. So please do not overexaggerate with your ignorant terms, because in a sense you are the same.
may the Lord lift the darkness from your eyes, may you be humbled by his word( Gita ) and may you surrender onto him, he who is our father, he who is our eternal lord, and he who is ever flowing with grace, because no matter how sinful you are, there is always space for you in the abode of the Lord, all you need is a change -
Hare Krishna
Swami
Your remarks typify all of the ignorant hard headed non-Catholics that don’t have a clue. Wait until you’re on your death bed. You’ll be calling on all kinds of people both dead and alive and YES, even some Catholic saints, I’ll bet.
You’re gonna find out how wrong you are. In the meantime, I would suggest that you keep quiet and stop basing your opinions and thoughts on conjecture. Do yourself a favor and read the entire Catechism of the Catholic church from cover to cover TWICE, if you’re sincere about learning. Then you’ll have reason to understand why true Catholics do what we do and believe what we believe in
Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Life!
ABAR!
I don’t understand what the fuss is about. Both religions have pagan influences in how they Worship God. Even the words Worship, Sacrifice, Goddess have pagan origins. Christians give money in sacrifice, pagans kill animals to appease their God. Catholics have placed Mary as a Goddess of Virginity just as the Romans placed Venus as a Goddess of Love. Roman mythology has been mixed up with Gods words. They are all pagan religions. Fear of honoring the wrong god is just superstitious. God, your Father, judges you on your character, not on your beliefs.
Dear Father.. Its long time since you have written a post like this. I am a hindu.. so what? I’ve been to church, be it RC(roman Catholic) LC (latin …) pentecostal or what ever. And each of these guys say that they are the real christian.. Again I don’t care about that too.. for me they are all Christians and believe in Yeshua.
I believe that Jesus is one of the savior and a lord, but doesn’t believe that he is the sole path to eternity, am sure, there are many other ways to.
I wasn’t here for that.. actually the picture there was juz a sculpture and nothing to do with so called pagan culture and god. And lighting a lamp is almost like cutting a ribbon, stating that something have started. And yes, its the indian way.
Dont take it to the heart dear, but christians in India do light lamps (yes, similar oil lamps with a cross on the top) and candles in front of Jesus.
Father I have some serious doubts.. please do contact me in the email address.. juz some doubts regarding Christianity.
It seems as if this is a very old thread at this point so I’m a bit reluctant to comment on it, but I’m a Catholic Ph.D. student in South Asian religions and the subject is of personal and professional interest to me particularly when I am doing fieldwork in India.
If you have interlibrary loan access you might want to look at the Indian bishops’ “Guidelines for Interreligious Dialogue” (Guidelines for Interreligious Dialogue. New Delhi: CBCI Centre, 1989). It deals with many of the issues treated in this discussion, such as the nature of Indian religions (polytheism vs. monotheism, the role of images, and so forth), and sets norms for interfaith worship services involving Catholics and Hindus.
My interpretation of the document is that the bishops established individual prudential judgment as the ultimate arbiter of what is licit involvement with non-Christian religions, with just a handful of exceptions – potential scandal given to the non-Christian party (avoiding scandal to the Christian party is contemplated but rejected as a guiding principle), and any guidelines and norms that are subsequently established by one’s diocese to limit the application of individual conscience. The norms specifically permit invoking the Christian god under Hindu names, adapting Indian religious symbols to private Christian religious use as part of inculturation, limited participation in Hindu puja, and a demeanor of worship at non-Christian religious sites. You may or may not be familiar with Cardinal Dias lighting a lamp for Ganesha in the 1990s, but it was a similar situation to the nuncio’s action at the JPII Center operating within the Indian guidelines. More recently, St. Philomena’s in Mysore illuminated itself (that is, turned on its lights) for the Hindu festival Dusshera.
http://www.ucanews.com/2009/09/11/priests-divided-over-government-move-for-inclusive-hindu-festival/
This is of course an Indian document, but from my own limited perspective, I think it’s likely that the Holy See, apostolic nuncios such as Pietro Sambi, and others in the Church involved in comparative theology and interfaith dialogue are aware of the Indian norms and find them licit, and something like the same norms are the de facto ones applied throughout the church. In other words, I don’t think the nuncio was acting in ignorance, but within norms for inter-religious dialogue that are generally accepted by the magisterium. If you could establish out of recent magisterial documents that this is not the case, I would appreciate knowing about it.