I was not going to personally blog about this, but given that my comments elsewhere are being circulated, I thought I would repeat them here. I responded to the shocking news that Fr. Francis Mary Stone made a statement on EWTN, saying he would be step down from his show LIFE ON THE ROCK in order to deal with the personal crisis of falling in love with a woman he had been counseling.
Dear Family: Regretfully, I have a message that does not come without significant pain to both you and me. I have to tell you in all honesty and truth, that I have been personally involved with helping a widow and her struggling family. Over the course of time, the mother and I have grown very close. As a result, I am compelled to take some time off to prayerfully and honestly discern my future. I am truly sorry of the impact this may have on so many. I am not unaware of the gravity and magnitude of the situation, yet after much wise counsel, it is really something that I must deal with now for the good of all. With that said, it is best that I deal with it away from EWTN. Therefore, I have asked for and graciously been granted some extended time to prayerfully discern my vocation. To those who are part of the EWTN family locally, and others throughout the world, especially all those who have supported me so faithfully in my priestly vocation and ministry here on Life on the Rock, I sincerely apologize. I ask for your prayers and understanding during this time that is so very difficult, but yet so very necessary. Please lift me up in your humble prayers to Jesus through Mary, our Mother, in Grace and Mercy. –Fr Francis Mary, MFVA
The question was asked, would he be taken back if he wanted to resume his priestly ministry?
I think such a priest would be welcomed back (into the active priesthood) but I would have preferred that he made no public statement. People think the worse and might suppose he has committed mortal sin… which we do not know, do we? Nothing sexual might have happened. It could be an internal turmoil only. Not knowing the details of the case, I can say little. And to be honest, I would not say anything more, anyway.
If he (any priest in such a situation) attempts marriage then he places himself and a person he says he loves into a seriously sinful state. It angers me that men can reject Church law and teachings when it suits their selfishness. If he maintains a brother-sister relationship until (or if) laicization is offered, at least then he shows some respect to the Church and concern about her soul.
Broken promises are always a scandal. But as of right now, has he literally gone “over the wall”? Maybe the discernment is a spiritual and psychological one that is directed to his return as a good priest to ministry? I have known many men who suffered because of the heart-strings, but desperately fought to preserve their priesthood. Such men sometimes seek time off and counsel in order to cope with the emotional upset. After they are done crying into their pillows, and if they regard their priestly promises as permanent, they come back to ministry. Yes, they will be wounded healers, but most priests are in some way or another.
Mother Angelica is pretty strict about scandal. She took a bishop off her station just for closing parishes in his diocese! Even if the good father returns to ministry, I suspect we have seen the last of him on EWTN programs.
EWTN has taken some pretty hard hits about its media ministers:
IMPROPRIETY SPECULATION
-
Fr. Francis Mary Stone (LIFE ON THE ROCK, World Youth Day host)
-
Msgr. Eugene Clark (INSIDE ST. PATRICK’S CATHEDRAL, RELATIONSHIPS, etc.)
ABUSE ALLEGATIONS
- Rev. Real Bourque (behind the cameras)
- Fr. Kenneth Roberts ( YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT, Marian specials, etc.)
- Father John Bertolucci (GLORY TO GOD, various shows)
We need the nightmare to end.
God give us strong priests with conviction and faith!
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Good post Father. Very interesting…
Fr. Joe,
I knew Fr. Real Borque during his time at EWTN. I often attended his Sunday night Bible Study while I attended Law School and he was my confessor; a great confessor in fact. I can express nothing but sincere gratitude and admiration for him. In my time knowing him, he was extremely knowledgeable of scripture, more than anyone I’ve met. His old Bible was marked up with notes and underlining. So much so they filled all white space on the page. His homilies were very humble and inspiring. He was a very holy and tender man, like a grandfather.
He spent countless hours pouring over the scriptures and writing study guides to better understand God’s word. He was very orthodox and gave sound spiritual advice.
I’ve even spoken with him on the phone a few times since he left EWTN. He is doing well and living with his order working on writing about better understanding Islam and its origins. He is also a firm promoter of the message of Fatima.
Regardless of any allegations, I’d just like to make my experience with him known. In all of my time with him, he was nothing but an outstanding, inspiring, loving, knowledgeable, humble, and orthodox priest.
Steve
Fr. Joe,
I was referring to Fr. Borque, just to clarify. Thanks for the well wishes! I hope you are doing well too.
Do you know what happened to Fr. Angelus who recently left EWTN? He gave great talks and homilies and has a strong following. Then all of a sudden, he disappeared without a trace from the network, though he continues his apostolate. He was originally brought into the EWTN monastery to serve as Father Guardian and did so for several years. Then, as seems to happen more and more on EWTN, boom, gone without a trace! As if he never existed!
Another EWTN priest who used to be on frequently many years ago was Fr. Augustine Mary. He had red hair and a red beard and glasses. Very fair complexion and tall. Again very orthodox and a good speaker. One day, gone without a trace! What happened? All of this is very peculiar.
Whatever the details, and I would rather there be no “particular” elaboration, we can still pray for all involved and for the priesthood.
Peace!
I don’t know anything about the priests named, but Franciscan friars aren’t celibate because they’re Latin Rite priests. They’re celibate because they’re Franciscan friars.
Fr. Shaughnessy’s transfer looks pretty normal to me. His Capuchin province in Pennsylvania “loaned” him to assist the MFVAs for some time, and after six years he returned to his province in Pittsburgh, and took up his current work. He is 78 years old, after all. That’s reason enough to retire, not that he really will!
Let us try to cool it, guys. Peace!
I remarked initially that I posted about the priest in question above with reservations. I feel uncomfortable telling another man how he should live his priesthood. I do not walk in his shoes, only my own. Further, not knowing all the details, I would not make any presumption as to whether anything sinful happened. Matters might not always be clear and people can get themselves caught in all sorts or predicaments with no malicious intent. Heartstrings can be innocently pulled and then we have to make the hard decisions.
Fr. Joe,
Thanks for your valued insights and response. Michael
Fr. Joe,
I’ve been thinking about it and wanted to make some remarks about a very special contemporary Catholic person. This person stood up to a bishop when he was wrong, and also thousands of pro-choice and abortion advocates. This person has also fought long and hard for objective truth and also for spiritual renewal in the world and we never hear anything from the news media about it. No, it’s not the Holy Father that I write of. It’s a little old feisty Italian woman from Canton Ohio who now lives in Hanceville Alabama. Her name is Mother Angelica, the foundress of EWTN. This is a courageous woman who refused to take no for an answer. She fought long and hard to turn $200.00 and a garage into a Global Catholic network. She has many enemies within and without the church. Even though she’s unable to speak now as a result of having a stroke, her presence and her prayers are very powerful. I have no doubt that someday she will also be canonized. I would be shocked if she weren’t. On a personal note, I don’t doubt that God desired EWTN with the help of Mother Angelica to propagate the Divine Mercy message throughout the world. I’ve had the privilege of speaking with Mother on two occasions. Her advice to me was this: “Obey God and follow the precepts of the church. You won’t go wrong.”
Better advice has never been given.
I loved reading how Pope John Paul ll would be tickled by her many endeavors, joking about “what’s next” because she had hit so many countries with her TV/radio/satellite.
He told her once, “weak body, strong woman”……no truer words could have been said.
Re: Michael’s comments about Mother Angelica
I am so happy that the Roman Catholic Church takes a long, hard look at each person being considered for canonization. Have you ever heard Mother let loose her smarting tongue on her past programs?
On one show when the discussion focused on the foibles of the Church, past heretics and ‘sinners’ and the whole issue of the crusades, Mother called an English churchman who opposed Catholicism in England (Kramer) “SON OF SATAN”. No need to explain further. Name calling ANYONE reflects back on the person doing the name-calling.
For June,
I laughed when I read your post regarding Mother Angelica. Very funny and very typical of Mother Angelica. You must realize that any doctrine or teaching other than that of Jesus Christ established through His Catholic church is heresy. The guy, to whom Mother politely referred to as being ” Son of satan,” has had many brothers through out history. Mother was right again.. You go Mother!!! Jesus called satan the “father of lies” which implies that he does have sons. John 8: 44
There are people who also scoff at the idea of canonizing JP2 because of the priest scandal and for other reasons. Do you realize how many “sinners” became saints? There aren’t enough trees to produce enough paper to record all of the names. Just to name a few: St. Augustine….a former womanizer. Moses, a murderer. Noah……got drunk after the flood. St. Paul…..murdered Christians. A more contemporary example is Fr. John Corapi… a former drug addict and playboy. I can fill up this entire blog with names. I hope that one day you’re name will appear on the list too.
With love and prayers, Michael
June,
Here’s something else that you need to know about name calling. Jesus Himself (almighty God, the second person of the most Blessed Trinity and savior of the world) called Herod a ” Fox” Luke 13: 32. He also referred to the Pharisees and Sadducees as a ” Brood of vipers” Matthew 3: 7. So it’s safe to conclude that Mother Angelica was simply doing what Jesus did. They both called a spade a spade and always delineated the truth with precision.
Hi Michael,
Thank you for taking the time to defend Mother Angelica’s name-calling technique. Regardless of your defense, in polite society name-calling is not acceptable. It is a defensive mechanism, and in that particular EWTN episode, (where the negative history of the RCC was the topic), the defenses ran high. And with the exception of Mother’s crude remark, the discussion was well crafted.
In my profession (psych) we believe that name-calling “is a way to make the name-caller feel much better about themselves”. So take your pick: name-calling can be a defensive mechanism, a comfort mechanism or just plain rude. End of my thoughts on the subject. Thank you.
June,
My response is to suggest that you read the entire book of Romans particularly chapter 7: 14-25. This will help you to be a better (psych) and also have a clearer understanding of the conflict that each of us have to face daily. It’s good that you’re a psych and a Catholic too. The world needs more like you.
Go Mother Angelica!!!!!!! You Rock!
Father Joe, I feel the Father did the proper thing. At least, he has admitted what he did and is trying to do the right thing. And he did not have to leave due to any infractions with children. Thank God! I appreiciated some consultation from him, through correspondence. He truly showed me compassion and respect, through some very difficult times in my life. I have not one bad thing to say about him. I, for one will lift him up in prayer, as I believe, as I always have, to be my Christian brother in Christ. And I know that God will lead him the way that God would have him go. The best thing any of us could do for him is to keep our mouths closed and him in our prayers.
Fr. Joe,
In light of the heading of this blog,
I wanted to touch on a topic that’s rarely mentioned in public. It pertains to those of us who strive to follow Christ daily. That topic is self-mortification. Jesus taught that we can only be His disciples if we take up our crosses, deny ourselves and follow Him. I know that God doesn’t ask us for something that we don’t have. Unfortuantely, we live in a hedonistic society that focuses on material gain, money, and instant pleasure, which complicates life more and more as time moves on.
Bishop Sheen used the Greek word “Kenosis” which means to empty. Now that Lent is fast approaching, this word can be used as a wonderful stimulus for renewal, self reflection, and spiritual growth.
God bless you and thank you for your valued comments and prayers.
Re: EWTN Scandals, and scandals in general
I would like to share what I’ve learned from a very good friend/priest about scandals in the church. He was preaching about the apostles, particularly Judas Iscariot and asked why Jesus chose Judas knowing all along that he was going to betray him. His response was that Jesus chose Judas as a reminder to all people that there will always be scandals in the church. Judas, as evil as he was, played a significant role in salvation history, as did Pilate and those that crucified Jesus. The crucifixion of Christ was the greatest scandal known to mankind…..man murdering God. I’m not calling anyone a “Judas” because of his or her faults or short comings. I can’t do that because I consider myself a sinner in need of God’s mercy too. Scripture tells us that all of us have fallen short of the grace of God. The point is that God uses us no matter what we are or who we are. Bishop Sheen said that there’s one Gospel missing from the New Testament. It should have been called: ” The repentance of Judas Iscariot.” How right he was. Judas had the opportunity to repent and didn’t because he failed to realize that God still loved him. Jesus told St. Faustina: ” The greater the sinner, the more right it has to my mercy.” There’s great hope in those words.
One of the greatest scandals of our time is the blatant and deliberate lack of respect and reverence for our Eucharistic Lord, particularly under His own roof. There’s no excuse for it and rarely do we hear any admonishments from the pulpit. Talk about scandal……….
I never understood why Judas was used to describe such awful things in the church. I like St. Therse and John Paul ll, think there is a chance he is in purgatory (or heaven now) He was sorry and if Jesus asked him at the moment of death, he might have told him so. He told them where Jesus was, it wasn’t like they weren’t going to arrest him soon enough anyway. He through away the money, hung himself, he wasn’t like the evil men today that rape, murder and lie and keep doing it. If only they would stop and realize what they did! Jesus said, “they know not what they do” about men that tortured him, beat him, taunted him….Judas did less in that regard and had to do what he did (or someone did)
You are right though about scandals…we will always have them as long as humans are on the earth. We can try though to limit them by having a quicker response to the actions.
Talking about Judas and his betrayal of Jesus……
St. Philip Neri, speaking of himself would remind the Lord daily to: ” Watch out for Philip. You don’t know what he might do today.” I think sentiment applies to most of us. We walk through this temporal life with the stain of original sin. Concupisence is a dark cloud that follows us where ever we go and none of us are exempt from it. When we fall we can always go to confession or make an act of contrition for venial sins.
St. Paul summed it up well when he said in Romans: “I know the good that I want to do but I find myself doing the terrible things that I hate.” “The body and the spirit militate against each other.” This is the conflict that man created for himself when he sinned in the garden. There has only been one person that didn’t have this problem and that was our Blessed Mother. God made His mother absolutely perfect.
My hope is that the entire world, beginning here in the United States, could return whole heartedly to Jesus, the miracle worker in the Eucharist. He waits there patiently.
Our help is in the Lord who made Heaven and Earth……..
Father Joe, I read the vatican is looking into trying to “rehabiliate” him. (have a link somewhere) but I understand the lean has always been one way, even the photos/paintings were always drawn to have him look ominous. I thought Jesus meant, he knew how he would be portrayed, how he would be remembered, so it was better he never was born. Who would want to be him?
But again, I never saw, compared to everything everyone else did to Jesus (and he forgave them from the cross) what he did that was worse…he was sorry and didn’t think he could be forgiven. Many of his followers didn’t understand him and even hid in fear and doubted his resurrection at first. I also lost a friend to suicide as a teen and I don’t like to think of that as a “one way ticket” and am glad the church changed that view.
I don’t know why I always thought he was saved, but I felt better to know some saints thought so too and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong, God forgive me. If I’m right, I hope he gives me a smile for not counting him out for the count if I make it one day. : )
Thanks for your great blog…I’m glad I found it…trying to catch up on some older entries.
I’ve always pondered what might have happened if Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus.
The salvation of mankind was at stake. That was huge. God had a plan that had to be carried out and so He used sinful man to help Him save sinful man from their sins.
It’s like Fr. Joe said: “We cannot say for sure who is in hell.” All I know is that St. Francis feared the possibility of hell every day and so do I. I wish everyone deserving of it, Heaven after death and eternal bliss with God.
God bless you.
To all,
I agree totally with Fr. Joe and Mike. We can’t say Judas is in Hell, nor can we even say someone as evil as Hitler or Sadam Hussein is either. That is not for us to decide, only God. However, to make some sense of it all, and to trust in eternal justice, we as humans want to believe they are.
On the other hand, we can’t presume or say with any absolute certainty who is in Heaven either! I just hope that many who are striving to live our their Catholic faith, including myself, aren’t met with our Lord’s words, “Depart from me, I never knew you.”
Janine
Janine,
Ditto! I know that we should never presume the mercy of God, but by the same token He doesn’t want us walking around with our heads bowed down wondering if we will ever see the light of glory.
Here’s a sure fire way to know.
He tells us in Matthew 25: 34-40
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
We can say with absolute certainty that the saints are in Heaven with The Holy Trinity because the church tells us that they are. Those of us who stive to obey and love God are all apart of His mystical body.
The church teaches us the last four things:
Death, judgment, heaven, or hell. That all begins here on earth. God, in His infinite love, doesn’t send anyone to hell. They send themselves there by disobedience and by an unforgiving spirit. It’s not His will that even one of us should perish.
I know what you mean Janine. As a priest explained it to me once, you don’t know what God knows, you think with a human mind. A criminal that only knew hate, abuse and wasn’t taught a thing about God, he might kill, but who are we to say he’s in hell. God might judge him by what he knew or was capable of doing. I always thought the faithful with all the graces and gifts we receive have more to answer for.
I would never (even without being touched by it) wish suicide on anyone, but if some of our criminals, thieves, pediphiles, just average sinners, felt half the remorse Judas did, things would be much better. He stopped sinning, how many others went on?He didn’t understand how anyone could forgive him and we still have people like that suffering from their own sins like abortion regret, adultery and many others. It took me years to go to confession myself….I’m glad many graces, especially from Mary helped me.
Padre,
Like to open forum of our blog.. Look forward to reading more posting…
Quick question what is the main difference with TOR Franciscans and I guess other orders?
Nick
We were talking about our eternal destinies and I forgot to share something in my last post. I once listened to a tape series from a Redemptorist priest entitled “From Fragmenatation to Wholeness.” Some of you may be familair with this and also with the priest who gave this mission. His name is Fr. Vincent. The main thought that I carried away from this was something very profound and very enlightening, yet wasn’t anything new. Fr. Vincent was giving an exhortation on going to Heaven and meeting God face to face. Father’s words were: ” I don’t think that God (He) will ask me the question: Vincent, how many times did you commit adultery or how many times did you steal. I don’t think that He’s gonna ask me any of that stuff. If He asks me anything, He will probably say:
VINCENT, WAS THERE ANYONE IN YOUR LIFE WHOM YOU HAVEN’T FORGIVEN?”
Jesus gave us these same words in the Our Father…..The Lord’s prayer. ” As we forgive those who trespass against us.” It must have been very important to Him if He told us to recite these words to His Father. It stands to reason. How can we ask God to forgive us and to allow us to enter Heaven when we didn’t show forgiveness to others? That makes perfect sense to me. He went on to say that the economy of our own salvation depends on our willingness to forgive others.
I could never imagine Heaven to be a place with a bunch of unforgiving sore heads. That place would have to be hell.
Fr. Vincent was 100% right. We’re called to be “other Christs” which means that we’re called to forgive always and everywhere. That’s enough motivation for me.
Correction. The priest that I referred to was not a Redemptorist. He was a Passionist priest. Sorry for the mistake.
Fr. Joe,
I’m very happy that you’ve allowed me to express myself on your blog. I don’t often get the chance to express my views without being labeled a religious fanatic. People tend to confuse strong faith with fanaticism. It’s just that I’m blessed by God with strong faith and desire to share this great gift everywhere and often. I’m very fortunate to be able to watch EWTN and religious tapes throughout my work day. Fr. Corapi put out an entire series on the Catechism of the Catholic church. I have it on CD format and would recommend strongly that every Catholic listen to it. I’ve finished listening to it once and now began to listen to it all over again. There are 48 CD’s in the set (48 hours). You can find it at http://www.fathercorapi.com
I bought this series with the concept that in order to love God more, one has to know what God teaches through His church. That’s why I suggest that every Catholic lay person serious about their faith should hear it.
I know that Ive been quoting Archbishop Sheen a lot. He was a great homilist and teacher and it’s too bad that this generation missed out on him. I could never imagine him having a prime time television show today, as he did in the 50′s. I think that it would probably be illegal.
Thankfully, EWTN shows his reruns. The greatest sermon that he ever gave came without the use of words. He gave that sermon daily by spending 1 hour with Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They said that he used to prepare his homilies before Jesus. He was humble enough to know that his strength came from God in the Eucharist. This is what made him great. I was told that he died right in front of the Blessed Sacrament too.
What a way to go!
If every Catholic held the same attitude toward the Eucharist as did Bishop Sheen, we could convert the entire world. My hope and prayer is for a greater universal love for Jesus, the great miracle worker in the Eucharist. I would love to see it begin here in the United States then spread throughout the world. Wouldn’t that be fantastic?
I belonged to a parish that was suffering in many ways. As soon as the new pastor took over he began perpetual adoration in the side chapel. Since then, the parish has flourished by leaps and bounds financially and every other way. It’s 100% true. Jesus waits for us in the Eucharist and has the desire to love and to be loved just as we do. He wants to pour out an abundance of grace into these hurting souls of ours. Like to good thief on the cross, all we need to do is to turn to Him and we have eternal life. It’s great to be Catholic!
If all of us get on our knees tonight and ask God to intervene in order to save these wandering souls, He will. He desires their salvation more than we do.
All it takes is one gentle whisper of the Holy Spirit.
Our sins, in some mysterious way, disrupt and effect the balance of God’s plan and providence. When we sin, we hurt God, ourselves and others.
Bishop Sheen defined sin as ” The loss of God.”
Right.
I know what you mean, re the money. No one is perfect though, even EWTN. I wonder at times if Mother Angelica was still head or if it happened years ago when she was, if things would have been different. Savvy as she was, and street smart, I doubt highly it would have gotten to the letter stage.
I stopped giving years ago to the annual appeals at my church when the scandals hit…thought of the money as going to the lawyers, etc. It was a way to feel like a had some power to say something so I know what you mean.
I found when I stopped giving to EWTN as much, (although I rotate my contributions today) I still gave to the nuns (a seperate institution) or the desertnuns who broke off to go to AZ or to Fr. Groechels group, also a person on EWTN that I like.
If you don’t want to give or take a break, write them though and tell them why. “Maybe” you will get a reply.
As a pastor I have to say something about the suggestion of withholding funds. It always hurts the wrong people.
The collection you give a parish helps to subsidize parochial school(s) and pays the monthly bills. Catholics are obliged under the precepts of the Church to support their parish. Building and repairs, all the salaries, utilities like electricity and heating fuel, parish activities and education, are all made possible by the support of parishioners.
Most priests are good men trying to make a difference and to keep the parishes going. Withholding funds because of scandals hurts these men, endangers the parishes, and ultimately hurts the poor and the sick/elderly the most.
Parishes are assessed at various rates by dioceses. For instance, I am taxed by the archdiocese at 10% with an additional 2% for education. Added to this are assessments for the Catholic newspaper, second collections, etc. This money is subtracted from the parish collection and sent to the archdiocese. The rest of the income stays with the local parish.
Parishes have closed because of litigation. But, they can also end up being closed if they cannot pay their regular bills.
PEACE
Father Joe, you are correct. My old parish merged with another, there were disgruntled parishioners etc. 2 schools involved and people left or stopped coming for various reasons. Now there is a danger of one parish closing and 1 school. They are always 5,000 in debt it seems and the archdiocise is not as rich as it was. I feel terrible that the schools in poor areas that really need them, have to close because they can’t afford to stay open; business is business.
I realized I wasn’t helping anyone by withholding money, but I never stopped giving all together, just in one area. Now I found a parish I feel good about supporting and hope to be able to stay here for a long time.
I did suggest and still think it’s a good idea, to write your thoughts down to the company/person involved, in this case,EWTN, if only to get it out of your system. I’m sure they took a hit of some kind with Fr. Francis but any more info beyond he’s not coming back, (which is obvious) would be a bit “soap opera-ish” and not fitting either.
I didn’t realize until I wrote myself years ago and read Mother Angelica’s book, that there are contributions to EWTN, contributions to the Poor Clare nuns, contributions to the friars themselves, the EWTN money is just for the TV show and salaries, etc. Even the monastary/chapel was built with seperate money from 5 people.
It’s your money, to do with what you please, but as Father said, just be sure to know what you are effecting.
Michael, I sometimes find it hard on a limited income to decide where to give, I give to church, EWTN, the nuns, Fr. Groechel’s order, homeless shelters, etc. but then I wonder if larger contributions to a few would be better than 10.00 here and there. I guess that is something to pray about.
I know EWTN isn’t perfect and I noticed a difference when Mother had to step down. It was noted in her bio by Raymond Arroryo that whenever she spent 2 hours or less at the network a week,which was how it was toward the end, things would change, nit-picking, arguments, etc. It was like her presence, even without words, made a difference. I was also dismayed when he asked her if the network would go on and she said, not, “oh yes”, but “everything comes to an end”. It gave me chills for some reason.
Deb,
Mother was only being real when she said that
“everything comes to an end.” EWTN didn’t exist thirty years ago. I believe that God, In His infinite love and mercy, established EWTN through Mother Angelica to help save souls.
I have no doubt that this is the main concern of our Lord. Scripture tells us that it’s not God’s will that even one should be lost. Remember the parable of the lost sheep?
Jesus also told St. Faustina : ” Souls continue to perish in spite of my bitter passion.”
Hence, the purpose of the Divne Mercy message, feast etc. which is very powerful.
EWTN, with the help of the church and the work of Mother Angelica are reaching out to these souls in order to save them from hell.
We need to evangelize too in order to save souls. We’re called to be light in darkness in order to reach people that can’t otherwise be reached ie. the work place where foul words are heard, foul things are seen, detraction, stealing…you name it. That’s where your light can drive out the dark evil where you work. Point being is that we’re called to do what she has done and God doesn’t ask us for what we don’t have.
As far as knowing who to give to first I say this: God commanded his people in Malachi chapter 3 verse 10 to render the “first fruits” or a tenth to His house with a promise that they will get blessed. Look at it this way: If you earn a dollar, that makes ten dimes. Is it impossible to place just one of those dimes into the collection basket at church on Sunday? It seems as though much of our modern world has the money for lavish cars, homes, vacations, plastic surgery, restaurants you name it. Don’t people get sick and tired of listening to the pastor beg for money every week? The man is running his parish on pennies and it’s even more difficult for him if the parish operates a school.
Yes, I realize that it isn’t an easy thing to do for families with children, but isn’t it worth the effort and the sacrifice to heed these words of scripture? God can bless us in ways that our tiny human minds could never conceive. It isn’t fair to deny God what He has already promised. God deserves the first fruits because everything belongs to Him anyway.
Giving this way is an act of faith. Jesus told us that where our hearts are, there we will find our treasure. He’s always right.
WE CAN’T AFFORD NOT TO GIVE
Deb,
God bless you for exercising your faith and for passing it along to your children! You’re already ahead of most people.
Our old pastor from our old parish used to say, in regards to money and church givng, that your families come first. That’s the domestic church. Another priest friend once told me that the average amount collected per parishoner at his parish on Sunday was $2.00. Shameful. That was an extremely wealthy parish too. Did you know that 80% of registered Catholics who earn above $100,000.00 per year don’t give nor go to Mass on Sunday and Holy days of obligation? Shameful and a sad fact. Another friend used to say that whatever you give to the church, you get back a hundred fold. Very true! I think that it boils down to this passage of scripture: Matthew 6: 19-24
I know that things are difficult for families, especially single parents trying to make ends meet on a single income. That’s no easy task, but we have to do what God asks. He said that He will never leave nor forsake us. Remember, that we own nothing and life was never meant to be easy. Jesus said to be His followers we must take up our crosses daily. If we claim to love Him, we must be with Him. Where is He? He’s on the cross because the battle’s not over yet. That’s where we have to be too.
He owns it all and we’re managers (stewards) of all that was entrusted to us ie.. …. our bodies, clothes, faith, homes, jobs, minds, money, family members, you name it.
We’re managers and we’re called to be humble. He’ll never punish us if we humble ourselves by trust and obedience.
In His eyes, that equals love.
To Deb and those readings these posts on giving money to the church.
I had financial problems in the past and prayed that God would send some insights as to what I was doing wrong. The Lord lead me to listen to a series on financial wisdom, which helped me tremendoulsy and ultimately lead me out of debt. In this age of pop up emails, constant credit card applications in the mail, and tv ads luring people in to debt, we have to remain vigilant. They tell us that we have to have the biggest, the best and the latest. THIS IS A LIE! It’s satan using these means to lure us into a lifetime of debt. He knows that if we’re in debt, then we can’t carry out God’s plan for our lives. Financial planning is life planning.
Now here’s another thought. Most Americans, being the capitalists that we are, focus more on money than we do on God right?
AMERICA HAS LEFT GOD &
THUMBS IT’S NOSE AT THE SOURCE.
It’s no wonder that we’re in the financial and moral mess that we’re in.
Homeland security does not originate in a Presidential cabinet or money. It begins in the hearts and the minds of those who fear and love God.
To follow up with the most important point that I left out, I got out of debt when I began to tithe and began sacrificing and living within my means. It didn’t happen over night. It took about 4 months, but it did happen. All that I owe now is my mortgage payment and nothing else……glory be to God.
I hope that my story helps at least one other person facing financial difficulty.
The main lesson learned was that you can’t seperate your spiritual life from your financial life because of what Jesus said:
” Where your heart is, there you will find your treasure.”
“Seek first the Kingdom and all things shall be added unto you.”
with love and prayers, Michael
Michael, it will take me longer than 4 months (unless I have an urge to buy a scratch-off and win a million!) : )
I do agree though it’s freeing to be within your means. I sacrificed a bit too much to have what I did as a kid, a full time and then part time mom and being with my 3 kids. I had to put big items, car breakdowns, etc. on charge and that wasn’t wise. I’m getting it down though.
I do see though that although my gifts are small, I am able to give to others and find ways to give without money if possible. You are correct that most Americans spend more on latte than church a week. Some just don’t think about it, they don’t “need” it as much in their eyes, but they really do. The food and drink at mass beats it all, but to be fair, some churches don’t feed their flock at all. When I left, in some ways I was starving, but I didn’t look far enough or hard enough before relying on outside means.
I pray this Easter brings many, many more back to the flock.
Deb,
You’re right. There are some churches that don’t teach what the Pope is teaching. Your kids are lucky to have you for a mom. I recently sent out a prayer request asking for my friends to pray for a Catholic hospital that permits In -Votro feritilization on their grounds. I received one negative response from a bubble brain “Catholic” woman who told me that unless the Lord Himself tells her otherwise, then she agrees with conception outside of the womb. She also told me that those children are blessed twice because they were wanted. WHAT?????? Where does this theology come from? She also told me that I need to choose better battles and that she’s going to vote for Pro- Death Obama. This same woman sat back and encouraged her daughter to have sex outside of marriage. This practice can be classified as being Moral Relativism.
The obvious consequence was an unwanted pregnancy and the child will be the one to suffer for that sin. May God have mercy.
This woman, nameless of course, is a dim witted ding bat who knows as much about her Catholic faith as a garbage man knows about spinal surgery. Please keep her in your prayers.
As far as getting out of debt, it took time to get into debt and it takes time to get out of it.
So long as a person is on the right track, then they will reach the finish line.
God bless
Sorry for the typo…………IN-VITRO
sorry
I started reading the posts when I heard about Fr. Francis. Like others I am so saddened by the whole thing and was looking for more information….positive info, that he was back at some other rectory and reconciled with God and his priesthood.
I have sent monthly small amounts to EWTN because I feel there is so much true information about our Catholic faith broadcasted there. I have visited EWTN and Hanceville and both are places of peace and holiness. I am sure my small donation does not even make a dent in the expenses involved in running the place. I agree that things have changed since Mother Angelica left. In some ways they have gone in a different direction. While I am not overjoyed with some of the presentations, I am THRILLED that I can enjoy the daily Mass. It is the only station in my area that has a Catholic Mass broadcasted. I agree that some parishes keep asking for money, and spend it foolishly but that giving must be a personal one. Sorry for this long post….I love this website…Peace
Father Joe,
I totally agree. I HAVE let it go….I just wanted to post my feelings about giving to EWTN….and to let you know I enjoy your blog….PEACE
Except for maybe one person, I think most who have commented here are supportive of Fr. Francis. Many have said that they are praying for him.
He, himself, went public about his need to work out the difficult situation with a widow. It is correct, however, there is no need to spell out all the details on what the crisis is about or for us to judge him.
What happens next is out of our hands.
In cases of other clergy, sometimes things must be said, as with pedophile priests, so that people will be forewarned not to trust them with their children. We have already paid too high a price for silence in their regard.
Further, it is my hope that generic remarks about priesthood and relationships might help other priests to make the right choices and to avoid personal crisis and scandal.
It must also be said that there are quite a few non-topical comments attached to this post.
I know that priests come and go at EWTN. A good many of them have not left the priesthood. and so…..Does anyone know what happened to Fr. Corapi….I heard that he is at home writing books…..I loved his program, even went to see/hear him speak at a college in my area. All the programs that EWTN are showing, are reruns. His instruction is never old but I would love for hime to do a new series.
Pat,
Fr. Corapi took a well deserved break from conferences and missions for a while
http://www.fathercorapi.com/
Pat, Fr. Corapi is taking a break. It’s tiring touring all over the country and he always had the inclination to be a “hermit” priest. It was his advisor that said he had a gift for speaking and he pushed himself intially to start.
He also suffers from migraines which sometimes made it hard, but he perservered.
I think by writing, he feels he can have a little of both, he can communicate and have the quiet and reflection he needs. Who knows what the future will bring but I think a year off was what I read.
Pat,
He said that he wont really be traveling much anymore and in order to keep in touch with everyone, beginning November 3, 2007 he began offering a web-based subscription service called “Weekly Wisdom with Fr. John Corapi” where he will provide 30 minute lessons every Saturday. He says he has to charge because the equipment is expensive for streaming online. You can view a video on his website that explains everything HERE.
Just want to thank everyone for the information on Fr. Corapi.
I should have visited his website before I sent out the question. As a result of your answers, I went to his website and signed up for the 30 days of teachings. I will see how I like it and if I do I will re-subscribe. If the into and first teaching are a sample ….I am sure I will enjoy it….PEACE
I met Fr. Corapi last year. What a guy! He and a few of my other priest friends attended Holy Apostles seminary in Cromwell CT. together in the 80′s. If you go on his website, be sure to order a tape on his conversion story.
He’s truly a modern day St. Augustine.
Michael, I have heard his conversion story a few times…..in fact I did purchase the audo tape and passed it around to my friends….It got lost somewhere along the way. I also taped a lot of his series on EWTN. The Lenten series is really great. I had a little problem connecting with the streaming to get the series from his website (because I am not tooo computer smart)..Struggled with it for about an hour and finally figured it out and got to watch this weeks teaching. A new teaching is available every Saturday……AWSOME….
Dear Father Joe, It has been manydays since the news about Father Francis broke. And yet, such a testamony to him, how people still inquire. Shows what an affect he had on the Catholic people; all together. Yes, I’m sure he is missed. And yet, we should always remember, not one of us are perfect people. Not only that, but our one true confidence must be totally rooted in Our Christ Jesus. In the scriptures we are told, God is ruler of us all. He lifts one up, brings another down. So, that none of us can glory in flesh. It must always be the Master, not the Messenger. I believe Father Francis understood this. Regardless, what others may say. I still confess, I feel he did the proper thing. And I know, truly, it was not his desire to cause any sorrow or harm or any such thing to anyone, especially to his own loved in the faith and his followers. There comes a time when you have to let things alone, regardless the cicumstances and turn it all over into the hands of God. I think the time has come. Move on in Christ in the way we should go. Answering to God for own sins and problems. Working our own Salvation out with our Lord. All the time knowing with a settled ” Peace “, God will take care of him. Once and for all. Thank you one and all for the responses, very sincere and heartfelt, in every possible way, I am sure to God first and all of our concerns about the transition. And I’m sure Father Francis would thank all, too. And simply say, ” Peace. “
Speaking of priests no longer on EWTN, anybody know whatever happened to Father John Kloubuchar?
Maybe Klobuchar – but it’s possible he left the priesthood. He was there one day and gone the next. Fairly young guy and this has been within the last 10 years – he didn’t appear on or host any programs, just said mass. And one day just wasn’t there anymore.
A couple of priests that have left EWTN have been mentioned on different sites, one left and got married and one is still a priest but using his baptisimal name, not the name he had on EWTN,and has his own parish. Sometimes it is hard to track priests if they leave an order because they took on different names when entering.
My understanding has always been that any priest that left the priesthood then married is in a permanent state of mortal sin, along with his “spouse.” How can a priest live in a permanent state of mortal sin and validly administer a sacrament. He can’t.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
I found the site below while browsing the internet.
http://www.rentapriest.com/web/?_p=1001
Their claim is that celibacy is the issue. WRONG! Celibacy IS NOT the issue.
OBEDIENCE IS THE ISSUE.
Who do these guys think they are changing the rules on their own?
What about the thousands of men throughout history who became priests….great and obedient priests, and never married?
These guys are nothing but a bunch of self righteous phonys.
http://www.rentapriest.com/web/?_p=1001
“Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.”
I am going to have to offer some correction. The answer is No, a priest who leaves ministry and gets married is not necessarily in “a permanent state of mortal sin”. First, if the priest simply walks off the job then no civil or Protestant marriage is even recognized as a lawful and valid bond. We can speak of the priest “attempting” marriage, but his promise of celibacy makes any marriage impossible, even if he and the beloved go through the motions. Such an attempted marriage is a matter of mortal sin. Second, if a priest who has attempted marriage should later be laicized, he can be released from his vows or promises, receive absolution in the sacrament of penance and have his marriage con-validated. Third, if a priest is laicized and released from his promises, then he is free to get married without committing sin or incurring censure. Fourth, can a priest live in a state of mortal sin and validly administer a sacrament? The answer is YES! The sacraments function no matter the moral status of the minister. This protects the sacraments for God’s people. Even laicized or defrocked priests can function in emergencies, hearing confessions and anointing the sick and suffering. A priest might secretly live in mortal sin, but he could still validly and lawfully offer Mass and the other sacraments. It is a terrible situation, and such men are called to reform their lives and witness.
Thanks for your answer.
I would never receive any sacrament from a priest knowing that he willfully lives in mortal sin.
What about once a priest always a priest? You are a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek.
The church frowns upon the married who seek annulment and divorce right? Something’s wrong with that picture too.
Since they’re married to the church first, whether they get laicized or not, doesn’t it constitute adultery IF they get physically involved with a woman?
Sorry for being an old fashioned prude.
Yes, this is very true, but allowing our priests to marry won’t prevent future problems, in fact it could make things get progressively worse.
Life is very complicated in the twenty first century.
I think that most nominal Catholics and non-Catholics place too much emphasis on the concept of priest getting married in order to prevent scandals. I disagree. I think that priests getting married is a scandal. They will have to stand before Jesus and explain to Him why they betrayed their priestly vocations. Yeah, I know that we’re all weak, BUT we still have to do what God asks. Obedience equals love for God.
I hope that the church never permits the clergy to marry in my lifetime or any other. This method has worked very well for more than a thousand years.
I do not know if matters would become worse, but a married clergy would have problems of its own… including the financial strain on small and mission parishes and the hardships that might face families. A priest could get sent to the missions or be assigned to a tough neighborhood. Right now, all Catholic priests in a diocese are paid the same. There is nothing of the trustees as in Anglican or Episcopal churches with the widely divergent salaries and benefits. We do not even have a pension plan! Religious priests would by necessity remain celibate, since they take a vow of poverty.
A married priesthood would not avoid scandals, although it might increase the numbers of heterosexual men where there is an apparent abundance of homosexuals (in certain places). Married clergy have to deal with bad kids, infidelity and divorce.
There is no scandal in a married priesthood if it is regarded as lawful in the Church, as with our Episcopalian priest-converts and in the Eastern rites. It is only a scandal when a man who has promised celibacy breaks his oath to the bishop and almighty God.
As I said, the Church already has married clergy and I suspect this relaxed discipline will be permitted within any large group of Anglican-use groups that seek union with Rome. Pope Benedict XVI, back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, inferred as much when he addressed the Anglican Conservative Caucus. He wants to repair, as much as possible, the breach from the Reformation.
Remember it took a McCarthy ally like conservative Republican President Nixon to make inroads with Communist China; it may take a traditionist Pope who likes the old Latin Mass to make a difference with Protestants seeking the home back to Rome.
Fr. Joe,
I agree with your thoughts. I also think that we need to react positively to things as time moves on.
Here’s a case where the Bishop had no choice.
I saw on the news that the Camden diocese (New Jersey) is closing (consolidating) about half of it’s parishes for lack of attendance and financial support. This was a very sad thing to see. I believe that the only way this country will remain strong is to remain united to the Eucharistic Christ. When Catholics stop going to Mass and when Catholics stop supporting their churches, the nation faces a lot of future problems and trouble. Jesus made the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. Why do we thumb our noses at that? That’s the only real way for us to remain safe and strong….that is to cling to the church, the Eucharist, and to His promises. We’ve become a nation full of arrogance and disrespect. We get what we deserve and it’s already starting….parishes closing, decrease of priestly vocations, priests leaving their vocations for women, lack of attendance etc.
I don’t see how bringing back the Latin Mass will increase the numbers on Sunday. That will probably work better in Europe than here in the States. If anything, I think that people will use that as an excuse not to come to Mass. The problem isn’t the Novus Ordo vs. the Latin Mass. The problem is getting the other 2/3rds back into the pew on Sunday. Not an easy task. It will probably take something worse than a 911 to do that.
I believe that many of the teaching of the religious in the 70′s when I grew up is coming back to haunt them now. Wanting to be “hip” the different advice you got off to the side vs what was in the book, made you feel it was okay to do many things. And they did do many things and that’s why they aren’t around today. I do feel though that slowly they are coming back….with orthodox churches (albeit fewer) and stricter orders flourishing, I think there will be turn-around one day. It wont come with strict sermons and making people feel alienated, but with the truth given with honesty and love. Being a good witness is the best way to bring people back…they want what YOU have. I laughed when a visiting priest at our parish walked down the aisle after mass singing and then stopped and said, Smile, you just got the body and blood of Christ….you look like you’re in a dentist’s office!”. He was right….you should be very grateful you have our church and it’s sacraments.
Hi Janine,
I just wanted to let you know that I understand completely what you are going through. I am currently going through the exact same situation myself and it hurts like hell.
I too am in love with a priest and have been for over 2 years now. Like you, I kept my feelings hidden for several months but when I had to leave the parish because I was moving house, like you, I sent him a letter telling him how I felt. I had kept my feelings inside and had to get them off my chest. It was such a huge relief to do so. The priest was wonderful. He wrote back to me telling me not to feel guilty and that I wasn’t the first woman to tell him I had feelings for him.
He has now left this parish too and chances are I may never see or talk to him again. This hurts so much. My feelings for him are stronger than ever. Like you, I would cry in my pillow at night praying to God to take these feelings away. To date, he still hasn’t. It’s so painful feeling this way about someone you can never have.
Like you too, I never ever pursued him, flirted with him or tempted him in any way. I would never do that. I have nothing but utmost respect and admiration for the work he does. I would never want him to leave the priesthood.
But I know exactly how you feel. It hurts every day. I am still in contact with him via e-mail which probably isn’t helping. I often wish to cut contact with him just so I can try and move on but the thought of doing that kills me.
I don’t know about you, but in my case, I was so sure the feelings were reciprocal. I could just sense it. He never said anything to me but it was the way he looked at me and acted around me, like a nervous teenage boy. I often got the feeling that he would have loved to ask me out if only he were able to.
It was great reading your story and resonating so well with it. You often feel like you’re the only one in this situation. Maybe we can pray for each other that one day this pain will cease for both of us.
God bless you always,
Catherine
Catherine,
I am sorry that you too had to go through this. I am sure you did not make it your mission to destroy a vocation and lure a priest into your bed. Who among us wants to admit to being in love with a priest of Christ and thinking of him not only as a priest but also as a man? On the other hand, I am sure there are a number of women out there who do indeed try to ruin what the priesthood stands for, who try to steal them away from Almighty God. This can be nothing but a grievous sin and offense to our Lord.
Though easier said than done, try your best not to feed the feelings, I know at times I was guilty of doing so. It only made it harder to let go. I do not know you, but if you were anything like me you may have had some wishful thinking going on there and imagined he felt the same but kept it hidden. I think the evil one has a lot to do with it. He is the father of lies and will make you imagine things that are not real so he can rejoice in your suffering and the possible fall of a priest.
Time does heal, but it is a slower process when we refuse to let go completely. Ask God for the strength to control your thoughts and let go of this attachment which can never produce any good fruit, but only prolonged and needless suffering for you. You are wasting your energy thinking of him.
At least you got an answer and he acknowledged you in some way, he reassured you that you need not feel guilty. I on the other hand, got nothing at all…a total rejection and cut off of all and any communication. I guess he just could not handle it. Fr. Joe wrote previously in this blog that this is the way it has to be….but it would have been nice to have had some sort of acknowledgement, because it only made me hate myself more. Nonetheless, I pray for him that he is happy and fulfilled and I will always think dearly of him.
I will be in prayer for you Catherine. God bless you and may you find peace and happiness in both this world and the next.
Catherine and Janine,
I enjoyed reading your posts. Janine, you’re remarks to Catherine are positively influential. I agree that Catherine should sever any and all contact with this man because God has better plans.
We know that if we seek to be true followers of Jesus Christ, we must desire Heaven for everyone because He does.
There’s such a thing as forbidden union. God gave us proof of that in the Old testament when he forbid this practice (Ezekiel 44: 22) “They must not marry widows or divorced women; they may marry only virgins of Israelite descent or widows of priests”
Archbishop Sheen said that in order to get over a past hurt, one must find a new love. That could mean many things. I personally would interpret it that to mean a closer and more deeper walk with my creator. He promises to give everything that I need and not everything that I want.
God bless, Michael
Pace e Bene!
Janine and Catherine, my dear ladies…I have the most sincere compassion for your pain.
What complex messes we manage to create for ourselves sometimes! How often we tend to project our ideal love, our ideal man, on various people…How we seek perfect fullfilment and happiness in creatures…
I once loved a brother, a simple brother, not a priest. It was not infatuation, although there is necessarily some of that at the beginning of every relationship. We were both young, attractive, compatible…in time we came to share a deep friendship and loved each other profoundly. I would have given up anything and everything to be with him, but there was nothing to give up because he was solemnly professed (in perpetual vows) and there was no future for us. He was already formed as a consecrated person for many years, and re-integrating into “the world” and its mentality would have been painful and difficult. We would have both lived with a sense of guilt, and perhaps later in life, been plagued with regrets. It is a terrible thing to feel as though you have betrayed God.
Had I thought about how much pain this relationship would bring into my life, what immense suffering and desperation one’s heart can be made to withstand, perhaps I would have ran the other way the day I met him. Our initial valiant attempts to temper what was happening were futile in the face of the strong feelings we had for each other.
We did not commit mortal sin. We just loved each other, and suffered miserably because we knew very well we could never be together and be happy.
It was just a matter of how long were we willing to endure the guilt, the double-life, the pain of the “relationship” before we would have the courage to rip out our hearts and say goodbye. We had to, of course. I couldn’t even look up at the Tabernacle for guilt and anger, and I can only imagine how he felt trying to keep a semblance of monasticism in the convent.
Ending the relationship was a nightmare. We did it because we had to, but it was a cruel, botched job and left both of us with resentments, so many unresolved feelings, and very painful memories. I cried every day for many months, soaking entire floors with tears and asking God why, why…why did things have to be the way they were…was it so horrible to love someone and want to share your life with them…endless agony.
To lay people and consecrated people who are in similar situations or might be in the future: don’t do this to yourselves! Fr. Joe is right. Turn around and walk away while you can, even if it seems weird and cruel and causes a bit of hurt somewhere. Better a bit of hurt than huge truckloads of misery later. Let monks be monks and priests be priests. There is nothing but pain and more pain in these sorts of relationships. Confession will absolve you of the actual sins you may have committed, but there is no easy remedy for the emotional hurt that remains often times for years or even a lifetime. Intimate relationships between lay and consecrated people are much more complicated than those between lay people…they are ridden with almost permanent feelings of guilt and inadequacy, they stir sentiments of anger towards God, they tend to separate or halt you in your own spiritual journey…and they do not bring fullfilment…you always KNOW, no matter how much you try to deny it, that that other person is not completely yours to have.
If you can manage to pull yourself from the emotional deathtrap of such a doomed relationship, and do a lot of introspection, reflection and prayer, you can learn a tremendous lot from it! Especially about how not to do it again! :-)
In the end, I realized that if my love was sincere, it could not be selfish and seek only possession and gratification. I offer my suffering for his sanctification and place him with great affection in our Lord’s Sacred Heart, begging for him all the graces neccessary to do His Will. I have more peace now than I did when we were together. It is extremely painful still, but at least its a “peaceful painful.”
I am very sensitive to the feelings and experience of all who have been or are in these situations, as I know very well that most of the time nobody means any harm! It is one of the most terrible things to go through, emotionally, and self-blame or any blame will do no good but only harm. The Lord alone can mend and purify and heal and bring us back into his Grace and Presence. He alone can bring good things even out of our sins, failings and stupidity!
Fr Joe, you have a very healthy and down-to-earth way of putting things in perspective. I wish I would have had that sort of good advice when I was young and silly and full of hot air!
Remember when Jesus came to the Apostles walking on the water? Peter said: ” Lord if it’s you call to me so that I can walk on the water too. Jesus said: “Come.” Peter stepped out of the boat and began to walk on the water. After a few steps he began to take account of the seas and winds, then started to sink. Scripture teaches that he sank because he took His eyes off the Lord.
This passage of scripture is a reminder to me of how so many people live by
their emotions and not by their faith. We live in a society that places relativism before objective truth and that’s why we’re sinking fast too. We’re drowning in our own egocentric desires.
Our Lady told the children of Fatima that souls fall into hell like snowflakes because of sins of the flesh. How many times do we need to be told?
Hell is real and hell is forever, for those choosing to go there.
God Bless
I just love it when people condemn other people to hell for their percieved misdeeds. I’m glad its God who does the deciding, and not egotistical, critical humans. I think He has a slightly more profound understanding of the human heart. Why don’t we try to keep our judgements to ourselves and mind our own Salvation, if we’re so afraid we’ll get tossed into hell-fires for daring to fall in love with the “wrong” person? Francesca, my sympathies. I’m sure you’ve gotten a lot of fire and brimstone already, though, you might be used to it. I had a dear friend (a consecrated person) who went through something similar, and oddly, it was the lay people that were the most critical and obnoxious. Its so! easy to judge when you’re not in that person’s place! Let’s forgive them and pray they don’t have to be put to that kind of trial. Peace
Brian,
If you are referring to the previous post to yours, I don’t think his comments were written with any true malicious or judgemental intent on his part. Rather, he is only pointing out how all of us, including himself, still have to deal with a fallen and sinful nature and can easily be misled by our emotions into situations than can ultimately risk our souls.
I have been there and felt defensive at first too ( if you have read earlier posts of mine). The truth hurts! This is a sadness that will most probably stay with me for a lifetime, it had such a profound affect on me.
One may not think that loving another human being can be a selfish act, because love is supposed to be caring for the welfare of the other. But if we come to love someone who is committed to another person or to God, then we must respect that and let them go. We cannot interfere with the promises they made or lead them into breaking that promise. We have to love them enough to want what is best for their welfare and happiness. If that means sacrificing ever seeing them again or even talking to them again, then that is how it must be. Although it truly rips your heart apart -God wants it that way for good reasons which we can only fully understand in the next life.
Any one of us, lay people and priests and religous, can become innocently entwined in emotional attachments that can only lead to pain for all involved. I still pray fervently for God’s healing and guidance and I fully believe with all my heart that one day I will stand before Him and He can wipe away every single tear I shed over this and embrace me with the most perfect love of all.
God bless,
Janine
What you’re saying is that people have no control over their intellects and wills?
WRONG! In other words, I can fall in love with alcohol and drugs too and nothing evil will happen to me?
It’s too bad that ignorant people hide behind their emotions then write off the Ten Commandments and everything else that God teaches through His Catholic church. He gave these laws in order to protect us and others from harm. If you have eyes and ears you can see that our country is in the mess that it’s in because people don’t listen to God or to the Pope. A person should never presume on the mercy of God by making bad decisions, living like the devil, and expecting to get to heaven.
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. THEY SEND THEMSELVES THERE! We were all given a conscience which tells us what’s right and what isn’t right. God has already placed that in our souls (natural law). St. Paul told us, as well as thousands of others throughout history, that the flesh and the spirit militate against each other.
NO, God won’t send anyone to hell because they “fell in love with the wrong person.”
They will go to hell as a result of sins committed from being in a bad and forbidden relationship.
PEACE YOURSELF
Thank You Janine.
I wasn’t being judgmental or malicious.
I realize that if we have a human nature we’re all inclined to sin. My spiritual director labels it concupiscence
My point was that everyone, MYSELF INCLUDED, has the tendency to live by false emotion and not by truth. The old man has influence over our emotions IF WE ALLOW HIM TO. I’m married to a beautiful woman inside and out. I notice other beautiful women too BUT, I would never think to cheat on my wife. She is God’s gift to me and a guide to Heaven.
For the people who do cheat, and those who leave religious life for the wrong reasons, I have to say this:
YOU’LL NEVER KNOW WHAT GOD HAD PLANNED FOR YOU, AND YOU’VE MISSED OUT ON SO MUCH.
That applies to this life and in the life to come.
When all else fails, there’s God mercy for the contrite and repentant. He never wrote anyone off because he sent Jesus to save us from sin. It’s up to us to accept His mercy and love.
Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Look at all that has been written and see how merciless we and our country are. We love to tear apart the sinner and excuse ourselves for our lack of mercy.
We love and forgive only the perfect and those who sin in small ways…don’t the pagans do the same?
How are we any different? Everything is a scandal to us…
Instead we should forgive and realize our own sin…yet we pretend and conveniently ignore our own faults…
We should imitate God’s greatest attribute…MERCY…we shouldn’t be scandalized…for “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”
MERCY is not for those who sin only in tiny ways…but for those who sin mortally…even those who sin maliciously and know better…is God’s mercy not granted to them especially?
Your post looks like a malicious prank because of your name (HAY ZOOS)
No one can fathom the mercy of God, WE can only trust in it. It’s there for those who REPENT.
Judging by the poor turn out at confession, many souls refuse to take advantage of God’s beautiful gift of mercy and complete forgiveness. He also gives the necessary grace and strength not to commit the same sins in the future, through this sacrament.
I heard a visiting priest say that he listened to three confessions with a scheduled 15 minute time frame before the 5 o’clock vigil mass on Saturday. That parish had fifteen hundred families in it and the next day almost everyone came forward to receive Holy Communion. Isn’t there something seriously wrong there? Scripture tells us that if we receive communion in a state of mortal sin (unworthily) that we will eat and drink condemnation on ourselves.
God cannot dwell in a dirty home. It has to be cleaned by taking a shower on Saturday afternoon or evening, in the confessional. The confessional is a place that God give us to go when we get dirty.It’s usually my heart, mind, ears, eyes, and mouth that gets dirty the most.
I know that I always feel clean when I get out, and my Mother dries me off while I stand under her mantle.
Janine, I wish we could talk and help one another in the faith. I am going through a very similar situation. Is there any way to acquire personal emails on this site?
Annie
From my point of view, people don’t fall in love without making a choice for the other person. And love is fickle. It seems overwhelming, but it can evaporate in an instant, unless it is fueled with real or fantasized inappropriate sexual contact with the other person.
Uncontrolled attractions are usually due to a habit of sin on the part of the person plagued with the attraction. We live in a licenscious society, and many things are considered normal that are provocative and can lead to trouble. In other words, men and women are too free with each other.
Before Vatican II, I think people would have fainted if they saw a priest hugging a woman parishioner. Now I see it all the time. I fume when I frequently see a very curvaceous woman friend of mine run up to any Carmelite monks of our aquaintance and throw her arms around them in a big hug. That kind of behavior is uncalled for and could be a real temptation for the dear monks who are (or should be) trying to be celibate not only in their bodies but in their minds and emotions.
There are many common sense things to do long before attraction becomes a problem and acting out becomes a possibility. Without self control, feelings of attraction, longing, and love can impel one to desires that cannot be fulfilled, including the desire to share one’s life with the other person.
Mortification is necessary in order to be holy. It’s painful, but it’s like preventative medicine, which can stop this kind of disorder from having its way with us, before it sickens or kills the soul.
It is appropriate for a priest to be standoffish with women. The priest should practice custody of the eyes. Hugging should be avoided. Men are vulnerable to women’s bodies and vice versa. It is more respectful and safest to avoid touch.
I frequently notice priests looking women up and down. This is wrong, and at minimum it is an occasion of sin. Priests just should not be checking women out.
Women shouldn’t be checking out priests either.
Something is really wrong going on. I had a young priest tell me that there are women that will do anything to “get” a priest. I knew a woman in her 80s who told me with a gleam in her eye that she would drive miles out of her way to go to confession to this same young priest, for reprehensible reasons.
There is a scene in the Teresa of Jesus series that illustrates how lax her convent had gotten. Two nuns were walking together in the cloister garden chatting about how attractive Father So and So was. Women still talk this way about clergy these days, and nobody seems to realize it is lax and potentially sinful behavior for women to talk about the attractiveness of a priest.
If a priest is attracted to a woman, he should be especially careful not to get too close to her.
Some would say that a priest should be able to be friends with women. I think that the potential for harm is so great that a priest should instead turn all of his longing for a female companion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Above all, lonely priests and lonely women should practice the virtues and self denial to empty themselves of everything that would prevent them from finding their emotional fulfillment in Christ. Being in love with Christ is a requirement for the Christian life. Being deprived of other companionship is not such a great sorrow when we have the Best Companion of all in our hearts.
Just as those of us with normal moral boundaries wouldn’t allow ourselves to dwell on the attractiveness of one of our children or one of our students, we should see that priests are taboo also.
And the good fathers should see the ladies and girls of the parish as taboo also. No excuses. It’s the only thing to do.
P.S. I love this blog, Father John. I just chanced on it today.
I agree that many people act inappropriately with clergy, but they are HUMAN and they all aren’t monks or hermits. If you tell men and women who are interested in the priesthood, you have to be lonely, try to not have the same feelings as others, they will fail and fail again. You have to address those things head on and learn ways to deal with them, but not run from them. Most nuns/priests have to learn to live with other men and women in their lives. If you put a suit of armor on, you can’t really minister well. Nothing is worse than a cool, aloof priest/nun to turn off someone needing guidance. I know it’s hard, there’s a fine line between having a good time and flirting, between hugging (mostly everyone needs human contact) and being sexual. Woman know what they are doing, men, including priests know if they are close to being inappropriate. What you would like is ideal but not reality for most.
One big complaint among many priests today is loneliness, they need real support, real friends and lots of prayer and grace.
Roseanne, I agree with you except for the part of hugging. God made us to be physical and to express love BUT, we have to be discreet about it. We can hug monks, priests, and nuns because they’re humans too. The problem comes when it’s done incorrectly and it’s intent is wrong I.e a bad handshake. The modern world tells us that if we don’t have a physical/sexual partner, then there’s something definitely wrong with us. I have a very good and humble priest friend who made an attempt to join a fitness center a few years back. My friend was around 50 years of age at the time. He holds a doctorate in Sacred Theology and was in the Franciscan order for many years. While he was filling out the application to join the gym, he was wearing sweat clothes and was unrecognizable as a priest. The employee asked him what his occupation was and my friend replied : ” I’m a Roman Catholic priest.” The employee looked at him and said:
” I guess that you don’t have any sex.”
My friend replied: ” What does that have to do with me becoming a member here?” He stopped filing out the application and began to walk out as the ignorant employee made a futile attempt to bring him back.
I watch EWTN all the time and one of my favorite speakers is Fr. John Corapi. Fr. Corapi was giving a talk on the priest scandal of 2002 and made the following remark. He said, concerning priests:” We can’t be seen hugging a man, woman, adolescent, or child”.
He went on to say that he was in an Airport and noticed a small child. The child looked at him and gave him a smile. He smiled back, and with that the mother became frantic, gave him a dirty look, snatched the kid up and took off.
That’s how badly priests at being treated. Stupid when you think of it.
It wasn’t that long ago that people whouldn’t have given any of this a second thought.
It’s sad and very true that priests have to stop being human by giving up affection. However, it’s becoming legal in two of our states to have same sex unions and folks sit back and do nothing. Isn’t there something seriously wrong with that? Since the world follows what we do here in America, I’m very concerned and worried about the future of this country and the world. What’s wrecking us is relativism, which makes us a nation devoid of God
A young man that I know is 18 years old and is graduating from high school in a few weeks. He’s been dating a girl, a college freshman now, for the past two years.This young man’s mother found birth control pills and condoms in their home and did absolutely nothing about it. He called home on a Friday night to tell his mother that he was “spending the night” at her house. He’s 18 years old. He hasn’t finished school yet. He is hardly established in his life. His mother allows him to do whatever he pleases because she wants to remain his “friend.” The result of this could turn out to be an unwanted pregnacy, then he will have to pay for the rest of his life. I could only imagine if I called home at age 18 to tell my mother that I was spending the night with a young lady. Since I came from an old school Italian family, my parents would have told me that if I didn’t come home that night, my crap would be in the driveway. That’s exactly what would have happened too.
Parents sometimes forget that they will be held accountable to God for not parenting their children properly. This is why the country is facing so much difficulty. We’ve raised an entire generation of what I like to call “cell phoners”
Deb,
I have another priest friend who is a hermit. He lives on a 60 + acre farm in Bradford County Pa. I asked him the same question: Do you ever get lonely? He replied:
“I never feel lonely because I’m never alone”
We think of the Polish mystic who influnced the life of the young Karol Wojtyla.
He taught him to always be aware of the “presence” of God at every moment.
God is always with us whether we feel it or not
Fr. Joe,
Who’s the tall priest/bishop standing at your left in the photo? He’s wearing glasses and I’m sure that I’ve seen him before on EWTN.
I may be called lacking in compassion, but I have no sympathy for Janine, or any other woman who decides she is “in love” with a priest;just as I have no sympathy for any woman who decides she is in love with a married man. A priest IS a married man, married to the Church, the bride of Christ. What I really find distressing is that Janine was so extremely selfish as to unburden herself and her desires by writing to the priest she was trying to lure. So this poor man has to reexamine his words and actions to try to determine if he had somehow encouraged this parishner in any way. He was probably totally innocent of anything indecent, yet now has to replay any encounter with this woman for any wrong doing!What a burden on him!Now he must second guess himself when speaking with any woman, lest she get the wrong idea. You consider yourself a Christian woman, Janine, but Satan used you just as he used Eve. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go somewhere and find yourself a husband to marry. I sure hope some woman doesn’t try to steal him the way you tried to steal this priest! How do you think God views your actions? Wrong is wrong. I am so sick of the sixties; “love makes everything right.” Not hardly. When an old man rapes a six year old girl, he is delusioned into thinking she asked for it, or else he “loves” her! How about a boy who molests his sister because he loves her? Still wrong! Love doesn’t make things right. This is why there are so many out of wedlock babies. Because they “loved” each other. We all have crosses to bear, but must remain chaste in all situations but married love.
Sandie,
I can only speak for myself when I repeat the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Romans:
“I know the good that I want to do, yet I find myself doing the terrible things that I hate.”
The flesh and the spirit are at constant battle, which began with Adam and Eve. Mother Angelica always said that the hardest work that we do is on ourselves. What she meant was that we have to deal with our erroneous emotions, wrong thinking, doubt, fear, the need for mortification, sacrifice, and self denial. Life has to become more of God and less of us i.e. the apostles in the boat on a storm on the lake with Jesus.
I think that it’s necessary to look at the word “LOVE” and realize how badly that word is misused today. The real definition of “LOVE” is given to us by Jesus from His cross.
He also told us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. In other words, don’t do anything to anyone else that we wouldn’t want done to you. That covers a very broad spectrum doesn’t it. He knew what he was talking about.
Heaven is a place where everyone loves God and everyone else perfectly. It begins right here. If you’ve read all of Janine’s posts, you’ll see that she realizes that it wrong for a woman to get romatically involved with a priest. It is. What about the thousands of women that don’t care? They’ll chase after anyone. A priest, a divorced man who in God’s eyes is still married, a teenage boy who is vulnerable. It happens every day unfortunately. These womeny have a void that they’re trying to fill, but they fail to understand that God is the only person capable of doing that. That void is for Him alone. (St. Augustine)
We need to control our disordered passions.
When an inordinate desire arises within us, it usually means that it’s time to perform a thorough examination of conscience, then get to confession and communion asap.
What if Eve had done that (went directly to God first) when the devil tempted her? There would have never been such a thing as sin.
Sandie,
Well…I was just finally starting to heal from this and then I come across your nasty tirade.
I am sorry if I do not live up to your standards as a Christian woman. I do not believe you truly read each one of my posts…because if you had you would have seen I was very aware of the gravity of the situation. You read what you wanted to. And judged very harsly.
You have no idea what I wrote in that letter to him, what I felt like and what I went through. You only felt I deserved to suffer. Well I did, so what’s your point Sandy? I GET IT ok?
As for causing this man grief….nonsense. I was nothing but an insignificant unworthy speck to him. He was not perfect and without fault…no one is and I am frankly tired of lay people putting all priests on some ridiculous pedestal that as mere humans they are destined to fall from.
If it is someone like YOU who typifies an obedient and holy Catholic, well, I no longer wish to be one. Why not let Almightly God, who ALONE knows the intentions of the human heart, be the judge?
I still struggle and go to confession weekly. I now feel like a piece of crap all over again thanks to you. Are you happy you have done your “Christian” duty?
To be quite frank…I am just about ready to quit the church – I am exahaused from living with confusion, conflict, guilt and constant scrupulosity.
So maybe this bad apple won’t be in the communion line this Sunday behind perfect people such as you Sandie.
The expression “falling in love” denotes that romantic love is not so much a purely rational activity which a man or woman “decides” to do, but rather is likened to an unexpected accident that overtakes them. We may not be particularly adept at controlling our feelings, but we do have some say over our response to them, even if compromised by the passions and our state of mind. It is true that we associate the marriage analogy to priestly celibacy and commitment: he participates in the priesthood of Christ who is the divine bridegroom to his bride, the Church. Of course, this association is analogous and there are many Eastern rite priests married with wives and children just as there are various Episcopalian priests who were ordained for Catholic ministry in the Roman rite.
Turning to this particular discussion, we might mean well, but I would not chastise or negatively judge another because she wanted to be honest with a priest about her feelings. It might have been better had she turned to another priest and made the revelation under the seal of confession; however, I cannot say for sure that this would have addressed her need to clear the air. Priests are big boys and while such letters can be difficult to handle; most priests would respond with charity, sympathy and then with a lasting silence.
Had Satan truly been involved with this relationship, a lot more would have transgressed than a simple piece of heart-felt correspondence. It seems to me that Janine was very much a Christian in her desire that he remain a good priest, even though it pained her to let him go. Janine’s life is her own and, as with all of us, God will be the ultimate judge. God save us from the judgment and recriminations of men!
Feelings that are not acted upon can hardly be compared to the abuse of children, incest, or the epidemic of fornication. Sandie writes: “…but [we] must remain chaste in all situations but married love.” This last bit is actually contrary to Catholic teaching. Even married couples must remain chaste. Chastity is not damaged by a husband and wife who enjoy the marital act. The late Pope John Paul II astutely taught that lust, even in marriage, is a sin. Chastity means that we should not take anything more than our due. A single person might hold hands or give a quick embrace to a suitor, but neither is entitled to sexual congress. A married couple shares their marital act as a hallmark of their life together; it is their duty to do so. They must love each other as persons of incommensurate value, thus preserving chastity even as they engage in nuptial expressions of affection and intercourse. Lust would invalidate chastity and make a mockery of the marital act, reducing the beloved to an object, an interchangeable commodity, a thing.
Janine,
I wouldn’t allow that post to get you upset . No one but God has the right to judge you or anyone else.
Only God knows your heart and whatever you do, DON’T QUIT THE CHURCH!
We follow in the footsteps of our redeemer who leads us to Heaven. It’s not an easy walk.
If you look back and only see one set of prints, it’s because they belong to Jesus who carries you like a father carries his child.
NEVER GIVE IN TO DESPAIR AND DON’T QUIT!
Fr. Joe,
I’m glad that you brought up the fact that the virtue of Chastity is for married couples too. People need to be reminded of that often.
Husbands and wives should never use each other as objects of pleasure. That reduces the marriage to mere physical acts and abandons the spirit of God. Chastity in marriage substantiates true love from lust. It places God at the center and gives the relationship a strong foundation to build on.
JP2 knew what he was talking about and it’s too bad that people didn’t listen. Then they wonder why their marriages failed.
Sorry, I had to get this off my chest. I read Bishop Sheen’s book Three to get Married while in Pre-Cana. That book should be a mandatory read for all Catholic couples.
Thanks for your valued insights and prayers.
Janine, you sound just like a child! If you are going to quit the church because of what someone says, then go ahead!
As for me, Jesus is more than what people say to me. He is everything! It doesn’t matter about anything but Him!
In the third grade when you were upset, did you quit school, too? Get on with your life by helping someone! Work with the retarded, the elderly, the poor. But stop dwelling on your self and your misery.
We have all had pain, caused by ourselves or someone else! But Jesus is the answer. He is carrying you through your pain, but you need to let go and let God.
You are VERY welcome in the Catholic Church as we are made up of SINNERS. Everyone of us, myself included. I have my own stories of pain and sorrow, but I do not blame God or the Church or the people of the Church!
I work with the mentally retarded every day, and they have real pain, through no cause of their own. Please, forgive me for upsetting you, but my words were only meant to have you think things through with your head, not your heart!
Join the rest of us Sinners in Church, and do not judge us, and we will not judge you! Christ is our equalizer. Being a Catholic is the most important thing in my life, because this is where Christ is. Not the people, although they can help, but because Jesus is my everything. Jesus found the Catholic church; we’ve had our share of problems, due to human beings. Please get past your pain, and live again in Christ’s love.
I’ve watched this thread develop after my post. We are our own worst judges and what a narrow and legalistic -sometimes cruel- view we have of just exactly how everyone else should be. ”
Much has been forgiven to who has loved much.”
Sin is a willful and conscious desire to go against God’s Will, Love and Commandements. Jeanine…you did not commit sin; you wrestled with a normal, human occurence and did wonderfully. Everyone should get off their high horse and pray that Haven forbit, THEY never end up in an emotionally difficult situation.
I’m annoyed by so much dogmatism and so little compassion. Eeck. I’m sure glad clergy is not like the laity!
The bottom line is that people can let other people down big time by being selfish. Think of all of the heartache and misery that could have been avoided had Adam and Eve simply listened to God. Children pay for the mistakes of their parents.
How many times do people use the excuse “Oh, I was weak?”
Weakness is no excuse for a man or a woman claiming to have Christ living on the inside.
St. Paul’s teaching.
I realize that the children are confused and upset, which stands to reason. I grew up in a very dysfunctional and hostile family too. I heard and saw things that children should never hear or see. I’ve spent much of my adult life trying to overcome those negative memories that have harmed my emotions and have made me very bitter.
For me, it’s only God and His mother.
Sandy,
“You act like a child” ” You should be ashamed” “Satan is using you.” “you are trying to lure”….etc, etc.
Sandy do you even hear yourself now? I feel like I am back in 1st grade with Sr. Mary Alice and her ruler. Such verbal harangues do not make me feel any better. I would rather think with my heart than my head any day – that means I truly care for others and am willing to listen with an open and compassionate heart – no matter how “sinful” they appear to be, espeically if I have not walked in their shoes.
Christ our Lord is kind and merciful; what a shame his people are so lacking at times!
I am very glad to hear that you work with mentally challenged individuals. It is best that way–their very innocence and naivete prevents them from ever feeling the sting of judgment and condemnation.
By the way, I take communion to the sick and homebound, started and maintained a parish project to send monthly food to the poor in Kentucky (made a trip to visit the poor in Appalachia), read at funerals and funeral vigils, and counsel the bereaved in our parish as part of the Ministry of Consolation. I DO reach out to others and I do dare to call myself a Christian woman. However, no matter how much we try to take the focus off ourselves, we can still feel sadness, pain and confusion. Such is the human condition. We are not robots. Or should we be? Ignorance is bliss, so they say.
I never claimed to have a monopoly on pain or ask for a pity party here. Life certainly does not dole out pain and suffering in equal measure. Some people have so much sadness and tragedy, while others have relatively none. So many walk around living lives of quiet desperation. I
One thing I know for sure is that I had to do it all over again, I would NEVER post on this blog. Why should anyone be brave enough to share an experience if all it invites is scolding and admonishment? I am tired of trying to defend my emotions and humaness on here. Even Jesus Christ knows only He is perfect. He only wants us to try and do our best and that is what I am trying to do.
SIncerely,
Janine (a.k.a “the tool of Satan”)
Janine,
I wouldn’t have given her the satifaction of a response. God knows her heart and yours because He created them.
You were very brave to share your story openly with us and to be opened and receptive to the responses.
You don’t owe her or anyone else any explanations.
God be with you.
So many overwhelming comments, people are always giving their opinions, trying to justify or criticize; too much talk. . Well, without further blabber, to me, it is simply and clear enough that the situation was created by both the priest and the widow; because it takes two to tango [edited: not tangle]. For the priest to tell the woman that she didn’t do anything wrong, it is preposterous! It is terribly wrong because, in the first place, she is at fault too: she should [not] have permit[ed] those feeling[s] [in] her heart (toward a priest) to grow. But she continued to feed them with all her knowledge instead of avoiding it and continuing further, [not] tell[ing] the priest not to counsel her anymore; so she is at fault too. Now for the priest, if he at one point , began to have some kind of feelings for her (at the beginning) he should have got[ten] out of the situation as fast as he could and [have] sen[t] some other priest to counsel her. So both are at fault and there is no other speculation here!
People need to realize that to find the solution to any problem they don’t need to analyze and speculate so much as to simply see the root or the cause. Quite simply, when one makes a promise to God and to the Church, especially knowing the word of God and the consequences there is no excuse They, the widow and the priest, let the flesh lead and take over before the purity and the promise and the love of God and obedience to His word. In this case none; it shows clearly that neither the priest nor the widow are deeply in love with God as they gave way first to their own earthly feelings. [They failed] to remain steadfast in their promise and status. The answer to God will be later, at the time of their departure from this life.
When one submits totally to God [one] should not turn back because it would be like mocking God. If we promise something from the heart to God we should never change, it is better to suffer and offer it as a sacrifice the demands of the flesh here on earth than loose a happy eternity. It is our choice.
God help all of us who don’t see and feel the true essence and ways of God!
Nancy
Nancy,
Amen! It does take two to tango.
This situation has been made complex when it is essentially very simple.
Priest begins to councils widow.
Widow and priest start to spend a lot of time together. They exchange personal phone numbers.
The desire and motive to spend even more time together arises.
Priest is weak and begins to doubt/question his religious vocation.
Woman doesn’t care that he’s a priest and gives in to the attention that he’s giving her.
Priest leaves and a statement is read.
The family and the network suffer because of this incident.
People begin to Blog and opinionate about it.
End of story.
First of all, it’s a woman’s duty to keep society moral. She’s the one who controls the relationship between herself and members of the opposite sex. We can see how badly they’re failing today. All we need to do is to look at the immodest way that girls dress and the garbage that gets televised. Eighty percent of sexual relationships depicted on TV are outside of marriage. FACT.
Secondly, His desire and willingness to establish boundaries were non existent in this case. He’s not the first priest to be drawn to a down and out woman and he won’t be the last one. His primary duty is to lead both men and women to Christ.
I’ve read these words on this Blog:
” he was weak”
” he’s human”
“he has emotions”
None of those things gives him license to do whatever he wants to.
Didn’t God, who called him into the holy priesthood and ordained him, also give him the necessary grace to remain a faithful priest?
What about the thousands of guys throughout history that were loyal and celibate priests until death?
Where did their strength come from?
I’ve prayed for his return, but it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen. It’s very sad.
In response to Nancy who writes:
“They let the flesh lead and take over……….it shows clearly that neither the priest nor the widow are deeply in love with God as they gave way first to their own earthly feelings…… The answer to God will be later, at the time of their departure from this life.”
I would like to know why you think they do not love God and who are you to know what is in their hearts and minds?
WHY DOES EVERYONE ON HERE THINK IT IS SO IMPOSSIBLE TO LOVE BOTH GOD AND ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AT THE SAME TIME?? Why does this have to be sin?
Just as Sandie wrote at an earlier post, she feels that the world “love” is being thrown around to justify all sorts of indecent behavior. She even has the AUDACITY to put caring for a priest on the same level as child molesters!!
Give me a break already, all ye who judge.
The priesthood puts men of all kinds out into the world to serve God’s people. Half of those people happen to be female. Many women seeking spiritual counseling are snubbed or treated coldy by uncaring priests who push them away for fear of losing their soul. They view all women as the enemy and potential temptresses. I think this is awful to be taught this in seminary…..that they have to avoid women, unless they are ugly, old or morbidly obese..(no one else pays them any attention anyway). Ridiculous. There is some problem there somewhere then.
Upon his ordination, a priest is given the power to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus..he is also given the power to absolve sins. This an awesome and wonderful mystery, one that most lay people probably cannot fully grasp. But any “superhuman” type qualities end there… meaning his is still not exempt from having or experiencing love and caring, yes even sometimes towards specific individuals (and not his parish as a whole.)
Yet the church and God demand him to suppress any type of feeling and to repent of such feeling if he does. The same goes for those who feel for a priest. I wonder how many go into the priesthood really knowing how many times throughout their life they will have to deal with these feelings. If a woman express her admiration and caring for a priest and builds up his ego, it must be very difficult for him not to want to respond and to spend more time in her presence. It is human nature to want to be with others that make us feel good about ourselves, those that appreciate us and acknowlege us.
Fr. Joe and the church speaks of the many graces given a priest to live out his celibacy and that it is freely chosen by a man. Well, maybe God does not give out that grace in equal amounts and many priests are torn and find it hard to live a life without the love and support of a wife, one to share his life with until he dies. If they fail, as Nancy pointed out above, they will have to deal with the consequences and face God at their death…probably going straight to hell. According to her they have earned their rightful place alongside Hitler and Sadam Hussein for having loved the “wrong” person.
How many of you people out there really believe this???
Who are we to say who ends up in hell? Let God make up his mind about that one. Only He can truly read the bottom of everyone’s heart…. not us.
Also, to compare leaving the priesthood to that of a married man leaving for another woman is preposterous to me. A priest can still love and serve God in other ways, he is not “leaving” God or divorcing him if he chooses to leave active ministry and be laicized so he can marry. To compare it to marriage between man and woman to me is crazy. A totally different thing.
Praise God for the 17 years of service Fr. Francis gave to Him. If he wants to be with this woman so be it, that’s his business. He can still love God, he is not turning his back on God completely, like so many on here are suggesting.
Diane,
What we’re talking about here is the absence of proper boundaries.
I’m not a priest and don’t claim to be. I’m happily married to a beautiful woman, “til death do us part.” We’re all called to evangelize, even though most of us have never seen the inside of a seminary.
There are different kinds of love between human beings. The Greeks had three words to describe it and we only have one word. A unmarried priest should never experience romantic love. Romantic love, which incorporates both intimate and physical love, is supposed to be precluded indefinitely at ordination and is reserved only for lay people.
The love that should be most prevalent and is most absent from our society is the love that leads others to Christ and to Heaven. AGAPE
The world, as we know it, is more absorbed by self love than any other type of love. You can verify that by watching any news broadcast.
I’ve stated, in a prior post, that Jesus gave us the proper definition of love by his death on the cross. That’s the true meaning of love.
Our souls are always at constant risk of being lost. We have to love others by letting go of any inordinate and fruitless attractions to members of the opposite sex, when it is inappropriate and necessary. We have to love them enough to let them go so that they will have a clear path to Heaven. That’s what Janine did and she should be highly commended for it.
That’s the greatest good that a person can desire for someone else.
God bless you. Michael
I really miss Father Francis Mary Stone. I remember being touched by his general demeanor and sermons. I have always been happy when he celebrated mass,there was something about him… He celebrated mass during the feast of St Francis on October 4th last year which is my birthdate. My love for St Francis and his adopted name “Francis” have always given me particular fondness for him, reminding me of my patron Saint. I liked his work with the youth and young people seem very at ease with him, it looked fitted for the work. He always came across as having such a beautiful soul. I feel that he is being tested at this present time. I appreciate the fact that he was so honest in letting us know what is going on. It takes a special courage to do so. In an earlier, Patrick mentioned that Father Francis was exposed to too many tempations” you can not be cool” he wrote… I feel that Patrick was generous with his post while at the same time describing the tempations. In other posts, others seem to be too harsh in their judgement. It is too bad that some of us are being so strongly judgmental toward him. Remember how our Savior Christ was quick to pardon and remind us that we will be judge with the same measure of our judgments. I think we should pray for him and whatever direction he takes. May the Lord guides him and may he finds happiness. We are all too humans, priests included.
I sorely miss Father Francis on EWTN
I look at these priests who fall in love with someone like I would look at my husband if he fell in love with someone else. He would have to distance himself from her; there is no other choice. He would expect me to do the same if I fell for someone. Many married people have probably fallen in love or had “crushes” on different people during their lifetimes. These people have put their marriages first and given up these other relationships, even if it was hard, even if it made them sad for a time.
It’s called being a mature adult Jackie.
Your husband has you and why would he even think of giving up his best friend and God’s special gift to him? The objective is for you to help each other get to Heaven.
Adultery is not the answer and let’s tell that to the rest of the American public.
Why would any decent married Catholic person or priest with a well formed conscience stray?
It’s because they’ve done exactly what the apostles did in the boat. They took their eyes off Jesus.
Marriage and Ordination is a long term, permanent, and serious commitment. What happens there affects families and hundreds of other people. Tell this to the folks with bulging eyes and the overactive libidos.
When these things happen the children, in this case the spiritual children, suffer tremendously.
They words to contemplate are PRUDENCE and TEMPERANCE.
Scripture tells us that a woman can take any man for her husband, but a man must choose his wife carefully.
In this case the man was already committed and unavailable.
Well here’s a wonderful idea I suggest someone might consider.
END CATHOLIC PRIEST CELIBACY!
Many other religions do this. Dare I mention themarried Lutherian priest who have converted back over to Catholicism within our church?
One of the man reasons why the Catholic are NOT getting any new priest is because the Catholic chruch needs to reform and modernize a little bit here.
In fact I remeber reading some place that before the 1600′s Catholic priest in fact WERE ALLOWED to be married.
Million of other holy men of other faiths are married and they serve God just fine.
Our Catholic faith is dying on the vine here people. If you want to save it we better look at ways to help create more clergy and not discourage them.
For that matter left women become priest too. The Lutherian sure do seem to be very OK with a female priest. Why can’t we?
Wake up here Roman before its too late!
“Regardless of its origins, I think it’s time the archaic celibacy rule for Western Priests was abandoned.”
Boy !!!, you are in gross error. You prefer human logic to Holy Spirit logic. Priests who give up married life to a woman have made a greater committment to God. If it is true, as St Teresa of Avila states, that God is everything then the celibate promise is merely a reflection of that realization. It is putting your money where your mouth is to use a trite saying.
I admire priests for seeing the logic of giving all to God.
thanks,
Mike
Christ said “Whatever you do to your neighbor, you also do to God” To me this implies that by loving another person it is also loving God. By reading the new testament, I am quite touched to see that Christ has always been quick to pardon the sins of the flesh, not condemn, although he said “go and sin no more” He did recognize how weak we are. I also remember the angels in the new testament who have found the daughters of man to be beautiful and married and procreated with them, creating the Nephelims, of course God destroyed them through the great flood. One might argue that those angels were the cast out ones…this is ground for another discussion… I do not believe it is a sin for a priest to love a woman, it is what transpired that is of question. Paul did say it is better to be celibate but he did not say it is the only way. I believe you can love God through another person, the two do not have to compete. Being married to God or being the spouse of Chist is a religious tenet, God or Christ did not request it to be this way. To ensure total commitment to the church, Catholicism promoted celibacy. Highest level of enlightenment seems to always promote celibacy in most belief system. Apparently we have to learn to overcome our desires and raise ourselves above the flesh and live in the spirit to polish our soul while still in the flesh. This, I believe is accomplished in stages, it does not eliminate immediaely the need for attachments and sexuality. True celibacy apparently is a function of human growth and development and grace from God. I suspect that being in the priesthood or other religious order does not automatically mean that one has transcended these dynamics. They can even become struggles for most. This is why I believe we should be compassionate toward our priesthood and pray for them, not judging but pray. We need our priests with or without human flaws, fortunately most have transcended most human flaws including sexuality. I believe that the church needs to address these issues from within and promotes counseling that is accepting of human flaws and ready to provide direction in a compassionate way. We are all too human…I wonder what St Francis has to say about all this. He was such a compassionate soul.
Priestly celibacy is a gift from God to the church. It enables the priest to carry out the work that God expedites to him without the worry of self gratification, a distracting wife, and biological family.
This is why there is a high divorce rate (50-60%) amongst protestant ministers.
A man isn’t capable of being a good father to two families at once.
Michael and all,
If a man isn’t capable of taking care of two families at once, then explain to us how the other 40-50% of Protestant ministers manage to do so. I know many Protestant ministers who raise beautiful, happy families and manage to take care of their flock in an exemplary way.
The 40-50% divorce rate is about average for the US population, clergy or not. I see nothing how ministry interferes in this.
I believe priests deserve the option of marriage. Even if it is truly the teaching of the “old” Church; so? Perhaps it is time for change. God doesn’t change, but church matters change.
Why is everyone so afraid of this? God cannot work through a married man?! Please.
Anna
As I have said on numerous blogs:
I am a former Catholic who remains faithful to the vows that my wife abandoned, pushing, twenty years ago and my opinion falls with a celibate priesthood as being the wisest option, although it is not “wrong” for the Church to have married priests.
It will be a “mistake” to remove the “discipline” of celibacy. and it is a “mistake” to allow “married priests” to become Catholic clergy upon “conversion”. Such is not “wrong” but it is not a wise decision. These men should be allowed to seek the priesthood when their wives pass away, and only then.
Annaclare,
What I don’t understand is why people try to rationalize things when the church is very clear on these matters. The system has worked well for hundreds of years. Why change it if it works well? Think of the thousands of priests who are/were chaste, successful, and celibate.
We humans are so inclined to complicate things when Jesus makes the rules very simple. If I had a penny for every time I heard someone say that priests should be allowed to get married, I would a very rich man and driving around in a Ferrari.
Why do people say these things? It’s obvious that the priest scandal of 2002 had a lot to do with it. Allowing priests to get married will never eliminate the problems facing the church and in the world. If I were called to the priesthood, I would DEFINITELY NOT want to be married.
In my prior post regarding Protestant ministers and the divorce rate, you don’t know what transpires within their families. Their children have to share their fathers with every other family in the church, which puts tremendous pressure on their mothers. The father has to be on call 24/7. Thank God that our Catholic pastors don’t have to worry about that.
I could never imagine the pastor of my church being happily married with children.The man is already spread out too thin as it is. He’s a great guy, and he’s also very generous, but he’s not SuperMan
Can a deacon administer sacraments?
The importance of making a holy hour every day before Jesus in the Eucharist.
It is said that Bishop Sheen never missed.
A friend is a priest who became chemically dependent on prescription drugs and acted out in sexual abuse back in the 1980s. After he put himself in inpatient recovery for his addict and released, he went to a Trappist Monastery and prepared to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation for his wrong doings. He received that Sacrament, which according to church teaching and Canon Law, reconciled him to the church. For 20 plus years, he remained drug free. When the scandal broke, his case was ‘rushed’ to Rome and he was put out on the street, abandoned by the church. I thought Reconciliation meant forgiveness and additional punishment for past transgressions were illegal and illicit. He still considers himself a priest and plans active ministry. Why did the Magisterium abandoned such priests? Are we forgiven in Reconciliation or not?
Daniel,
The story is not unique, I know a man retired early and who served jail time. He is no longer allowed to use any priestly title, cannot wear clerics or say public Mass. Like the priest you know, what he did happened decades ago. His abuse was a byproduct of alcohol. When he stopped drinking, things changed. But, no matter how contrite and reformed he is today, it did happen. We must protect our children and safeguard the good work of the Church. I personally think that it is fool-hardy to put a man who has abused a child back into parish ministry.
There are monasteries which have taken a few, but that is really a different charism, and not all the men seem gifted for the life of a contemplative. In any case, we do not want to flood our cloisters with pedophiles and pederasts, do we? The sacrament of penance forgives sins, it does not protect us from the consequences of our wrongdoing. As a priest, I can forgive a man or woman for having sex outside of marriage. However, the woman might still get pregnant or one of them might contract AIDs. Further, some sins require restitution. A thief must attempt to restore what was stolen. A priest who has hurt a child will suffer discipline and punishment both under civil and ecclesiastical law. There will also be civil penalties and costs. The new rules point toward the laicization of priests.
They would always retain the sacramental character and could offer absolution in an emergency; however, their ministry as a priest would come to an end. Stripped of his faculties, he would not normally be allowed to celebrate the Mass and sacraments. Any Mass he would say would be illicit. My suggestion to such men is that they are called to spend the rest of their lives in penance, making reparation for what they and others like them did. Restored to grace by absolution, they could still attend Mass and receive communion from others. Life is not over for them, but it will be forever changed.
I am sorry your priest friend ended up on the street. Most dioceses try to make some provision for these men through their many secular associations. I knew a priest who was removed from ministry for such reasons and the last time I saw him, he was begging on the streets. I gave him some sandwiches and a little money. No one would give him a job, he said. He was a certified counselor. But he was also an ex-priest who had purportedly abused a child. Angry with the Church for “throwing him away”, he would not let anyone help him. He disappeared from behind the dumpster where he was living. I lost track of him. I got a message one day, an email that casually mentioned that he had died some time back, a few years ago. No one knew, not even his family.
I am sorry for your priest friend, I really am. This whole business is a nightmare that never stops hurting so many of us and on so many levels.
Wow. I made it through the first half of comments -so many!
As a young woman, I must say that Father’s advice is RIGHT ON! It is a tempting, but intrinsically imprudent idea for a lay woman or a priest to express, hint at, or imply their romantic feeling for the other -for any reason(in regards to the suggestion of trying to make either one “feel better”).
The feelings cannot be expressed materially -that is the salient point- and so it is unhealthy to express them verbally. Words are important, they have meaning. And as the woman above illustrated, the words that we say to ourselves about our feelings either go to solidify them or free us from them -how much more so when we verbalize them -even if only to say they are the reason why so and so action is being taken. The speaking of such emotions gives a reality to them, which is not helpful and is, indeed, tempting -even if they have a highly developed sense of self-denial. You can see then, where such actions are not prudent. And, words are indeed, actions.
Working daily with young, handsome, vibrant, orthodox priests, whom I have admired as much as any people I have encountered in my life -I must admit to the thought of being entirely scandalized if one were to “reveal” such things to me. As women, it is our job to give our pastors the benefit of the doubt if they must leave us or discontinue contact in any particular way. If a priest becomes “gruff” to protect himself -good for him! This is more important than my “friendship” with him or my oversensitivity (to which we women are so prone-but need to overcome in relevant situations!).
In fact, I know a single young woman, who after prayer, has recently left her parish ministry because she found it increasingly difficult to work closely with so many young priests as her position required. She took the honorable, self-sacrificing step, of removing herself from the occasion of sin -and God is blessing her for it!
Essentially: It is not appropriate for us to solicit communications with priest outside of a work or ministry question or in specific cases of needed pastoral counseling -these should not be long or ongoing, unless the priest has agreed to be our spiritual director for some SPECIFIC purpose e.g. discerning vocation, new job, etc.
If we are growing attracted to a priest and have found ourselves seriously assenting our encouraging that feeling or desire, in any way that it is OUR job as women to distance ourselves appropriately. Even if it means going to a different parish, finding a new confessor, etc. It is worth it. It is our duty out of love for our brother and ourself. The Scriptures speak often of “Guarding the Heart”. It is not easy, it requires will-power and self-control -but it becomes easier and God blesses this kind of charity and virtue abundantly with peace and joy!
May God Bless you Father and dear sisters in Christ!
Dear Fr Joe, dear forum,
I am a physician and also a small creature of the Third Order of St Francis. I live in Romania, so my perspective is definetly a bit different that yours in the USA. I am on an intense collaborative basis with the Conventual and Capuchin Franciscan brothers here; we work together on many social and medical projects and our results have been beautiful and an example for our less-socially involved Eastern-Orthodox church.
This blog has really twisted my mind :-) It makes me think of all my priest friends, and not only, my lay brothers friends as well… I don’t think I’ve ever considered this issue you all discuss at such length. Although we’ve worked together for many years, its always been so very clear that a man who consecrates himself to God consecrates everything he is and has…otherwise, why would he still be in active ministry? I find the priests and brothers here so happy and fulfilled, so protective of their relationship with the Divine, so beautifully prayerful, and yet so normal! So close to the people (they ARE Franciscan after all, that’s their charism)…never gruff, never shunning people, so funny…and silly…and humble and I say it again, so normal.
Someone speaks of a priest taking care of a bird for a parishioner here. I myself went to Italy for a few weeks just a bit ago and I asked my good friend and Spiritual Director to come feed my cat while I was away. The thought of me luring him or of him thinking I am using my cat as bait for a possible romance is worthy of a communal diocesan laugh, and I would lead that laugh myself with a big glass of beer :-)
If people from the parish judged me for this, how way off they’d be and of what benefit to them to worry about me and another human who is the master of his own conscience anyway? The only fish-tank observers here are very old grandmas who have nothing else to do and are extremely concerned about keeping the new vicars’ chastity. I find it amusing that there is always an old lady that likes to take upon herself the burden of a young priest’s chastity and decides to monitor him to death. We all know, and we all laugh. Even the new vicars.
I don’t know, so I cannot say, and yet I’m too expressive not to ….express myself, but it seems to me that perhaps the USA is a very judgmental and constricting place for those whose lives are very different (Catholic religious, maybe because things have happened there with priests…) and that might make it harder for them.
We have been through war and communism and torture and famine and we’ve always had our faith and our priests and never considered them as possible “catches” ….that would be very laughable and bizarre…since they are priests…and hello…what would we do without them…not to mention God has called them.
I dont know if I’ve made myself understood…its just so..basic…respecting someone life choice. When my beautiful and young and handsome priest friends are down (yes, I have lots of them, and yes, it IS possible NOT to want to snatch them away and have your way with them, of course it is, what are we? animals? come on, life is so much more and so beautiful!) my heart cries with them and I find myself offering up everything I do for their suffering, wanting so much for them to discover more of that Love from God which keeps you strong and firm in Him. Priests are beautiful, wonderful men who give up everything WE dont, for the sake of something infinetly beyond our understanding.
And if you, yourself, are not a consecrated person, and you dont have any clue what its like to feel that sort of responsibility towards God and towards people. and you dont know what its like to come home from horrible days of feeling worthless to an empty room and an empty bed with just an invisible God that always keeps asking you for more…than you should not, not, not ever judge. Best if you simply never judged at all. For the thoughts of God are not the thoughts of men… :-)
I hope all my silly wonderful Franciscans will go to Heavan, and I am sure they will; because no matter of much anyone can separate themselves rom God, God can..in one single instant…an instance of contrition, understanding, love…envelop them in His Almighty and SacredHeart.
Well, I dont know what to say. Things are different in everyone’s heart. My soul cries with all the priests who are hurting. I have felt so much the Great Mercy and Bewildering Forgiveness and Love of God, that no one can ever influence me into thinking my Lord is not there, at every deathbed, near every anguished soul, offering relief, offering Himself One More Time.
Laudetur Iesus Christus!
P.S. Michael: Forgive me, I know I am overstepping many boundaries in saying this, but I could not help noticing that you seem very…dogmatic and harsh sometimes. I am sure you mean just to be a good Catholic, and thank God for good Catholics who know and live their faith, and I am convinced you are one of them!!! I myself tend to be dogmatic and scrupulous, but that doesnt mean I do not have room to grow perhaps a bit more beyond the books of cannon law and into love. The woman the pharisees brought to Jesus was CLEARLY wrong by all legal measures, and yet Jesus’ gesture was spectacular, magnificent, so beautiful. That is why we are Christians… Have we become new pharisees, with a new code of law that we have fallen in love with and cling to despite what our Master has very explicitly taught us? Would we condemn as they did? I hope not. Forgive me Michael, I do no tknow you or your heart, perhaps I am so very wrong, I do not know you after all. Please pray for me.
Miruna,
The Pharisees were the walking blind of Jesus’ day. We are not the new Pharisees by speaking out openly against things which are intrinsically evil. Jesus is counting on us and commands us to speak out in the face of wrongdoing. There is such a thing as justified anger and every now and again we need to flip over a few tables in the temple, just as He did. If we sat back and maintained a culpable silence, how can we ever claim to be true followers of Christ? We can’t. We are soldiers fighting the good fight for our heavenly King.
We walk a delicate line. On the one hand, we have to adhere to and also enforce the laws of God with love and vigorous enthusiasm. On the other hand, we always have to be gentle in spirit by showing love and mercy always and everywhere. Admonishing a sinner is a spiritual act of mercy. Souls are always at risk of being lost forever, which is the main reason for God becoming a man.
Jesus said that to be His disciple we must take up our crosses and follow Him daily. That isn’t always an easy thing to do. How many times do people suffer for following Christ? That’s where the rubber meets the road. How many people wimp out like Peter did by denying the presence of the Lord? It happens every day.
Remain faithful to your call to faith in Jesus.
No one can ever take that away from you.
I recently met an elderly Polish widow from the WW2 era. She told me that she was placed in a forced labor camp by the Nazi’s in the early 40′s. She didn’t go into detail and I certainly did not ask her to expound on her horrific experience. I can only imagine what they did to her in that camp. She isn’t angry or bitter at God because of what she went through, in fact she is a very strong woman blessed with an enormous amount of faith. That’s what enabled her to make it through it all.
There’s a powerful message in that.
God bless you and please keep me in your prayers for a special intention.
I wasn’t going to comment on this, but what the heck!
Firstly; Michael, I think you’re tame compared to me. I usually need to bite my tongue and draw blood, before I calm myself down enough to write a reply to some of the comments I have read here.
Secondly; I take little notice of comments written anonymously by priests, nuns or sisters, living in Romania.
Thirdly; Fr Joe, I have only one comment to make regarding scandal in the Church or anywhere else for that matter. It is something I read many years ago written by VanEpp. And, although it was not in regard to any priestly scandal, his words have stayed with me all these years and I believe is appropriate for this topic.
….”This is a truth of life: beliefs change behavior, and behavior changes beliefs. Try to maintain a belief that you refuse to follow in your behavior, and eventually one will win out. Either you will curb your behavior to match your belief, or you will alter your belief to allow exceptions for your behavior.”
Fr. Joe,
To clarify:
Weren’t the Pharisees the guys who were constantly trying to trip up Jesus?
They were fools who became backboards in the game of spiritual basketball. The truth simply bounced off.
They refused to accept His teaching because He brought positive change to the church and to the people of the day.
Think of our Lord, the word made flesh, standing in front of them in silence, while they were foisting their views of religion and God upon Him. Imagine what was going through the mind of Jesus? Who knows the Holy Trinity better than He does? No one.
What I take from this is that it’s better to listen and to allow the Holy Spirit to work within one’s own mind and heart.
The key to all of the parables and Biblical stories written in the new testament is Jesus.
He’s the focus.
In that sense of the term Pharisee, I guess that I’m one of them as well.
I did teach 6th grade CCD at one time.
The woman at the well became one too didn’t she? He made her an evangelist and she told others about Jesus. She was the first person to call Jesus “savior.”
I never stated that the Holy Father nor any of the Bishops were ever wrong about anything either, especially when it comes to the manner or method of receiving Holy Communion. All I know is that it must be done with a great amount of respect and reverence.
We have unique preferences because we have been given unique intellects and wills.
We’re not robots. So long as we sincerely accept and adhere to sacred scripture, sacred tradition and magisterial teaching, we stand on solid ground with God.
Regarding the use of the word “mystic” I have sought whole-heartedly to define that word according to common church interpretation. The best definition of that word came to me via Fr. Thomas Dubay. He said and I quote: ” A mystic is one who is deeply in love with God and who sees God in everyone and every thing.” St. Francis of Assisi was a mystic and so was the late, great John Paul II.
Most people believe the misconception that all mystics experience visions and extraordinary events. This isn’t true and never was. Those who are deeply in love with God are mystics and have no need for visions nor for supernatural events. They love God because they trust God. If those kinds of things happen, then glory be to God. If they don’t happen, then glory be to God. True faith doesn’t demand or require any of those things.
All that these souls require is Jesus in the Eucharist and quiet time with Him in prayer every day. Most devout souls are mystics who don’t realize that they’re mystics. They are people who are simply head over heals in love with God, which is the best place to be when you think about it.
Daiane
You don’t know me enough to label me as being “tame.” I’m far from being tame.
If you would ask my wife or any members of my family, they would be quick to tell you not to debate with me.
Jesus teaches us to be like Him in all things.
His divine message and presence are contradictions to this passing world.
We, who are called to follow Jesus, must also be a contradiction to the ways of this passing world as well. That doesn’t always make us popular people, which doesn’t bother me at all. I desire heaven for my eternal destiny.
Fr. Corapi states that he doesn’t argue with anyone anymore because he’s older and he’s had his fill of fighting throughout most of his life. I say that a person never really stops fighting no matter who they are or how old they are. If we are living and breathing on this planet, we are always fighting something or someone.
We are soldiers and soldiers have to fight to stay alive.
Father Joe, I really don’t know. It was a quotation with that name as the only reference, in a book on social science, and I was not successful in learning more about its author.
Michael, You are a good soldier. I’m glad you understood that what I was saying is not to let any form of criticism discourage you from fighting the good battle. You are refreshingly honest, and I enjoy reading your comments.
Daiane,
Thank you for the compliment, but I can’t take credit for anything. The bottom line is that we are at war and war is hell on earth.
Jesus told St. Peter: “You are no longer Simon (weak) but Peter (rock) and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
With that it mind, think of how secure the world would become if every person became a strong Catholic? Think of it. Since Jesus founded one church….the Catholic church, He made a promise that the gates of hell would never prevail against it. Why do the most Christians thumb their noses at that when it’s clearly written in sacred scripture? Jesus founded ONE church and not 30,000 different churches and interpretations. One of the most powerful signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit is unity. The only church on the face of this earth with any considerable amount of unity is the Roman Catholic (universal) church. The church has been around for more than 2000 years and will always be here until Jesus returns. Why? Because of His promise to Peter (the rock).
If this were not true, then the secular media and others wouldn’t be consistently bashing her the way that they do. The devil’s strategy is simple. He wants to divide then conquer. He will go on trying until the King of Heaven returns to put an end to it once and for all.
My next door neighbor is an orthodox Presbyterian minister. He asked me if I would keep an eye on things while he and his family went on a short summer vacation. I said that I would. He went on to say that I’m the most devout Catholic that he has ever known and asked me why so many other Catholics are so complacent and ignorant of their faith.
The guy is always trying to trip me up, and it often blows up in his face. I replied that most Catholics do know their faith it’s just that they aren’t as enthusiastic about it as they should be. I went on to remind him that there are people in his church, (approximately 70%), that don’t attend services on a regular basis either proving the point that Catholics don’t possess a monopoly on complacency and disobedience.
I use the analogy of a solar panel sucking up sunlight. We are the solar panel and the sunlight is Jesus. The more that a person is exposed to Jesus, the more spiritual energy they will have I.e. Holy Communion, Confession, a visit to the Blessed Sacrament or a Holy Hour, meditation and prayer. It stands to reason. If a person chooses to hide in a closet long enough, they will become blind and blind people can’t see in order to fight.
Why is the moon the symbol for our Lady? The moon gives no light of it’s own, but reflects the light of the sun. That’s what Mary does. She reflects the light of Christ. This is why we Catholics have strong love and devotion to the mother of God. ( do whatever He tells you)
I don’t know anyone who can stare at the sun for long periods without sustaining some serious eye damage. Remember the scripture passage that says that no one can look at God and live? A person can look at a moon in any phase for long periods and still see because the moon is not the source of the light.
We’re also called to reflect the light of Christ so that others may see.
Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
Michael , Soldier of God- I’ve just returned from a week-long pilgrimage to Italy…Rome, Assisi…and a few indescribable days with Padre Pio at San Giovanni Rotondo. Quanto ci ama il Signore! How great is the Love of God! I also had the blessed opportunity of going to Monte Sant’ Angelo…Gargano, where there is the oldest sanctuary of St Michael the Archangel (5th century), I’m sure you know of it. What a sacred and impressive place to speak with God.
Your special intentions are in my prayers.
Daiane – Romania is actually a country on the map :-) We do exist. Pass Poland and look towards the east, near the Black Sea, and you will find a fairly large piece of the world called Romania, with many human beings, some of which are catholic. Thank God the forum doesn’t selectively allow only comments from countries that Fr Joe thinks are “cool ” :-) And I am not anonymous, I am actually a person. I never said I was a sister. I said I was of the Third Order of St Francis; we are lay people, living under a special rule.
Miruna
Thank you for your prayers.
I’m glad you had a nice trip. St. Padre Pio lived in neighboring towns to both of my grandfathers. My maternal grandfather came from Pescichi (Foggia) which is located just above San Giovanni rotundo. My paternal grandfather came from Riccia Campobasso which is north east of Benevento Naples where St. Padre Pio was born.
St. Padre Pio has a priest relative named Fr. Pio who lives in Pennsylvania. He’s also a Franciscan and wears a brown habit. He carries one of the half gloves worn by his cousin. When my wife had a paralyzed vocal cord and lost her voice for 8 months, he was kind enough to bless her throat with it. Her voice returned shortly after that.
If you ever get to Pennsylvania there’s a place called the National Centre of St. Padre Pio located in a town called Barto, Pa. Barto is about an hour ride north west of Philadelphia.
Here’s the site:
http://padrepio.org/default.asp?page=home
Miruna
Anyone who posts on the internet is anonymous, unless we wish to give our full name, addresses and telephone numbers. Blogs are full of forums with people saying they are this or that and yes, even I can be whoever I want to be on the internet. I have even come across some blogs that belong to “priests” who dissent from Catholic teaching, yet when asked by their readers for the name of their parish and location, they are silent and refuse to answer. However, I certainly am not implying that everyone on the internet should disclose such personal information.
I took little notice of your original comment because you ending by critizing Michael as being dogmatic and harsh, although now you call him a soldier of God, and decide to put your attention on giving me a geography lesson.
Sorry Miruna, you may or may not be who you claim to be and post what you will, but I make my own decisions on what comments I take seriously or enjoy reading, and you have the right to do the same.
Peace.
Michael, earlier you wrote:
“Remember the days when it was absolutely forbidden for a lay person to enter the sanctuary? I clearly remember the day when the gate was removed from the altar rail. It did serve a real purpose and it worked. I can’t help but question why we do away with such things when they’ve worked so well? Little by little these practices change. I also disagree with receiving Holy Communion in the hand because it brings about many opportunities for sacrilege. I’ve found consecrated hosts left in pews after Mass and I know that worse things than that are done. Evil people realize that it’s God, receive in the hand, then desecrate it. They will surely answer.”
Perhaps you can clear something up for me regarding receiving the host during Holy Communion. Years ago, I attended a catholic mass. It was a service for a cousin of mine receiving his confirmation. I, myself am not catholic but I was asked to attend along with my family and of course we were all honoured to be present at such an important moment in a loved ones life. I was sitting apart from the rest of my family when the time arrived for the congregation to rise and receive the host. I was unsure what to do. Confused about my place and not wishing to show disrespect, I joined the crowd. I was surrounded by strangers as there were several hundred people attending the event. To cut a long story short, I received the host but did not mention it to my cousin’s family in case I had tainted the event somehow in their eyes. What was the proper thing for me to do in this situation? I would not have felt embarrassed to remain in my seat while the others filed past me but I thought to do so might be showing disrespect. I have never received a coherent answer to this conundrum but the depth and clarity of many peoples posts to this blog give me cause to believe that I may have found a place.
With respect,
Joshua.
Thank you Father Joe.
joshua
In addition to Fr. Joe’s response I would like to say that it’s also considered a mortal sin for a Catholic to receive the Eucharist with a known mortal sin on his or her soul.
A known mortal sin is a violation of one or more of the commandments which includes grievous matter, sufficient reflection and full consent of the will.
Catholics with an unrepentant mortal sin on their soul and non-Catholics attending Mass are encouraged to make a spiritual communion instead of receiving. A spiritual communion can be a prayer or a series of prayers I.e. an Our Father (the Lord’s prayer) or a decade of the Rosary. This does not take the place of individual auricular/ integral confession for Catholics.
Any Catholic with a known mortal sin on their soul is always encouraged to get to confession asap.
Fr. Joe,
When you were a young man, most people could tell you the difference between a mortal and a venial sin. How many Catholics today really understand all of this? It can become very complicated to us lay folks. How many Catholics truly understand?
A priest once told me that it was OK to receive communion with a known sin, then go to confession afterwards. Hmmm?
Another priest told me years ago, when I was younger, that a certain sin that I had committed was not a sin and was normal behavior. You and I both know how wrong he was. A priest in my Catholic High school taught us the proper way to inspect a condom for leaks. All of this makes a persons head spin.
This should explain to you why I tend to be scrupulous at times. I try to live by my gut and my conscience instead of what some of those guys are advocating. If they aren’t teaching what Jesus taught, then they will have to answer for being heretics.
You can ask five priests the same question then get five different answers. This is why my Catechism has doggy ears and dirty pages.
Can a person sever his or her relationship with almighty God in just one act? Adam and Eve, Judas Iscariot, Hitler, and Stalin could all be in heaven for all we know. The truth is that no one knows for sure. We do know that the possibilty exists because of what Jesus did on the cross. He died for everyone and when we fall, we can always go to confession.
The spirit of God has to lead us there.
All I can tell you about me is that I sincerely try to live in a constant state of grace because I fear the possibilty of eternal loss of God and the loss of what He has planned for me. I could hit the submit comment button right now then drop dead at the keyboard. Then what?
I try to make confession atleast once a week.
I do have many, many priest friends. One of them, who has a doctorate in sacred theology, told me this a long time ago:
” Michael, all that God expects from you is an honest effort. He doesn’t expect you to do something that you’re not capable of doing. ”
God looks at the dispostion of the heart.
One prayer/request that God will never refuse is the request for help to love Him more.
One of the most effective ways to love God more is to see and love God in everyone around you.
FATHER JOE,
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT FATHER JOHN MARY WHO USED TO BE AT EWTN AND LEFT ABOUT10 YEARS AGO. I WAS VERY FONG OF HIM. I KNOW HE ALSO LEFT BECAUSE HE HAD FALLEN IN LOVE WITH A WIDOW.
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT HIM. DID HE RETURN TO THE PRIESTHOOD , THE CHURCH?
THANKS,
ELBA
Elba,
I didn’t know that Fr. John Mary Klobuchar left the priesthood. He was a nice guy. I can tell you that he responded in great detail to my letter concerning the Catholic church’s teaching on purgatory, a while back.
Like Fr. Francis, things like this happen and when they leave they fall off the face of the earth.
http://www.mfva.info/1/constitutions/001.htm
Dear Fr. Joe
Fr. Joe do you know Fr. Shier, the priest that came on EWTN show and spoke about his experience of judgment before the lord and was sentence to hell. What became of him??? THANKS , MAY THE GOOD LORD BLESS YOU ALWAYS AND YOUR PRIESTHOOD.
jesus lopez,
I remember him. He was in an accident that involved a tractor trailor. He ended up in a coma. Our Lord Jesus told him that because he was a priest for himself and not for the people, his judgement was hell. The blessed Mother spoke up and said: ” Son, give him another chance. I will take care of him from now on.”
The Lord replied: ” Mother, he’s yours.”
and with that, Fr Shier came out of his coma and converted.
I would also like to know what happened to him.
Maybe we can locate him on the EWTN archives.
I think he is still a priest in Kansas but not at the parish he was a few year ago. Maybe Fr. Joe has a directory to check.
http://www.frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/lent3.htm
http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/allen/alobits/query015.htm
He did mention he was an Intercessor of the Lamb on Mother Angleicas show but know they don’t show him as a hermit on their site. After reading your comment, I remembered being curious about him last year and googled his name.I found that he was later at Holy Name of Jesus in Bushton, Kansas and also Holy Trinity in Little River, Kansas. But I’m not sure where he is now; I looked at the Archdiocese of Wichita, but I didn’t see his name.
http://www.cdowk.org/parishes/parish_page.jsp?id=12
At least as of 2005..
JOHN:
I have read through these posts of over several months. It is amazing to me how most posters, including you, Father Joe, are simply the products of a mind-confusing cult known as EWTN. The whole thing about Father Francis indicates how un-real, de-ranged, blind, myopic, confused people become when they subscribe to an ideology that professes to have “the fullness of truth.”
The insularity that results from such hubris and self-righteousness only leaves them all the more subject to irrational thinking and behavior because they have cut themselves off from any objective and corrective feedback. (God forbid that anyone would think that “orthodox” thinkers would need correction in their thinking!)
The larger cult of which EWTN is just one example, namely the Roman Catholic Church (among others), of emotionally insecure, fearful, abstract-addicted people (many of them doing things that are essentially “good”) is such a behemoth of archaic, spiritual materialistic commercialism and propaganda and superstition – so far removed from the simple teacher of Galilee and his principles of living.
Its no wonder that all around us there are signs and noises of the crumbling and crashing of this edifice. “Unless the seed falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone.’
May all beings be healed. May peace prevail on earth.
FATHER JOE:
Okay, we get your point, you hate the Catholic Church and think it is a cult. You slam EWTN and think somehow a TV station has somehow taken control of the faith, and yet EWTN has both supporters and detractors within the Church. I think that Mother Angelica did us all a great service and created a network with no help from the bishops. Indeed, the television efforts of the U.S. Bishops failed miserably and today we have nothing to show for the money they threw away. Mother worked on a shoestring budget and worked miracles. God bless her and her good people.
People post about the priest who left because his show brought him into their homes. They love and miss him. Although disappointed, they still pray for him and for vocations generally. There is nothing wrong in this. It is quite noble.
All the many comments are themselves a kind of feedback, as is your detraction of them and the Church. I would ask them not to get angry but to add any and all jerks to their prayer lists as well.
I make no apologies for the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church.
You have a very crass and one-dimensional view of the Church. What you call abstract is the very mystery of the Church as a divine-human institution. She is the great sacrament through which we encounter the living Christ. She offers us God’s revealed truths and assists us in knowing and in loving the Lord. We perform countless acts of charity, not for secular humanistic reasons, but to give glory to God and to allow our love for him to embrace our brothers and sisters. The Church gives us seven sacraments: of initiation, of vocation, and of nurturing and healing. Sins are forgiven and we receive the bread of life and the cup of salvation. The Church is our Mother. She is precious to us.
I know, you disagree with all of this. All you see is fanaticism, greed and scandal. We have given anti-Catholics much ammunition to assault us. But we trust Christ promise, that the Church will endure until his consummation of all things.
Well; I am certainly far more educated than I was so thank you to both Father Joe and to Michael. I should probably mention that not only I am not Catholic but I am also not Christian.
Your willingness to take my inquiry seriously and reply thoughtfully was much appreciated.
Regards,
Joshua.
Father Joe,
Thank you for your many good replies to the posts here.
I came across this site today because somebody at our Catholic Bookstore told me the news about Father Francis Mary Stone, yesterday. I was totally shocked! I love EWTN and I love the Franciscans. This incident reminded me that we are all in need of prayer and support of one another. I also thought of something I read about St Francis: I may not get this quote word for word but it was something like this:
When people thought he was a living saint as he was sick and dying, he told them,” Do not cannonize me yet, I may yet beget sons and daughters.” I love that, it shows that we are able to fail and that we need to be on guard at all times!
Great website!
Dear Fr. Joe,
I would like advice on a great concern that has been weighing heavily in my heart for quite some time.
A new convert at my parish became an employee at the church. She has openly announced to her good friend that she was in love with our pastor. Out of concern, she confronted our pastor about this woman’s feelings towards him and his response was something like, “She’ll get over it.” What worries me was she was confirmation coordinator but soon became his personal assistant. After that position for whatever reason didn’t work out, she was promoted to another position which gives much authority over other employees as well as the parish in whole. She has stirred alot of problems with people with her bossy and pushy attitude and after many complaints by several people to our pastor about this woman–he does nothing about it. This woman seems to do no wrong in his eyes. Their working very close together has created much talk and concern. He has been told about the talk that has been going on and yet he still does nothing.
Father, is there anything we can do? This priest is very holy but seems to be blinded by all that is going on with this woman. Even other priests have complained about her.
I would appreciate any advice that you can give.
Thank you and God bless,
Sheila
Dear Fr. Joe:
I stumbled across your blog today and I have read a number of the entries here. For several minutes now I have struggled to begin writing something that I pray might do me or someone else a little good. It is easy to say much and nothing at the same time. I do not want to do that!
I was a priest from 1979 to 1995. During the years of my priesthood I fell deeply in love with a woman but I resolved never to leave the priesthood or violate my vows because of this. In the end, however, I did leave the priesthood after I discovered, through an extremely painful process, that I did not belong in the ministry. By the way, I never married the woman I fell in love with. I waited for the Holy Father’s dispensation before I even started looking for a wife.
My story is long and complicated. I certainly can not tell it here. But I feel the need to let those who might wonder why some men leave the priesthood, that there can be many reasons. Sometimes it may even be for the good of the Church. It is not hard to be misdirected in the search for the will of God in one’s life. What we often think He wants is not the case.
In any event, I do know from personal experience what it feels like to burn with love for God, make a public vow of celibacy to serve Him, and then suffer the very human trial of a forbidden attraction. Although I did not leave the priesthood because of this, as years passed I have often wondered if it was not part of the way Our Lord taught me deeper and more valuable lessons about His discipleship.
Let us pray ardently for Fr. Francis. My one piece of advice for him would be to take at least three years of prayer and removal from the woman he is involved with. God will ultimately clarify for him what he needs to know, but it may be quite difficult to confront.
By the way, if I have aroused anyone’s curiosity or even their sense of being scandalized by hearing from yet another former priest, I will gladly try to explain more of what happened in my life. But I am not at all sure it is time for that yet. Suffice it to say that I have much more peace now than I ever did as a priest. I am quite active in the parish and love teaching Catholic catechism to adults in the RCIA. My previous life is unknown here except by the pastor and local bishop.
A final note: I hope the one named “John” above who considers the Church of Christ a cult continues to grow in his anti-Catholic passion. He seems to be just the kind of man that the grace of God gets to sooner or later.
Daniel
Daniel wrote: “By the way, if I have aroused anyone’s curiosity or even their sense of being scandalized by hearing from yet another former priest, I will gladly try to explain more of what happened in my life. But I am not at all sure it is time for that yet.”
Me, I’m happy to hear whatever you’re comfortable with telling us. You seem to have had an interesting life. Thanks for your post!
My grandmother very much hoped that my father would become a priest. Instead, he fled and joined the army as soon as he was eligible. I think all that might’ve had something to do with why my sister and I were not brought up Catholic.
~M
There are many nuns and priests that leave for many reasons and they are living good holy lives. Some I’ve read about were confused and went against the church later when they left, but a lot of that had to do with prior teaching, mis-reading their desires with God’s (very hard to discern at times) and very strict convent livng being confused with “the church”. No one is perfect within the church, you can’t base it on that.
If what you say is true, I’m happy you have found a place to serve God and be happy. I also thank you for your previous service to God and the willingness to try.
Deb,
We can’t live a holy life, apart from God’s will.
St.Padre Pio said that the only thing that matters is doing God’s will.
“THY WILL BE DONE”
I think of all of the divorced people living in a permanent AND DEADLY state of adultery now. The Priests and nuns who left religious life, for whatever the reason, missed out too. We don’t realize it but even our most minor sins effect the entire order of God’s creation.
No one knows the effect of that but God alone.
It’s a serious blow when a good priest leaves religious life. Think of all of the souls that are lost.
Michael, I agree with some of what you say, but we are HUMAN, and not everyone knows God’s will entirely. Many priests and nuns were not meant to be priests and nuns but they went through the stages and then later realized it wasn’t for them. People also marry the wrong person everyday unfortunately. Some priests/nuns were removed and the decision was decided for them because they were ordained but doing many sinful things. Some “maybe” were in the wrong diocese or community and they might have been better suited to another venue. I’ve read of nuns that were in very strict orders years ago,made to do things that were cruel and demeaning and finally left because this wasn’t “being a bride of Christ” to them. Maybe if they had been in a different order things would have been different, but “shopping” is discouraged and leaving many years ago, was fraught with shame on both sides, men and women. I’ve heard priests say that it is very hard to go into the real world when you’re older and not trained in any other area, nuns feel the same way. I wish every vocation was meant to be, but they aren’t.
As long as we are human, we will make desicions that are flawed, vocation directors can’t be phychics but they try.
I sometimes wonder if I did things differently, married someone else, looked into being a nun, what would I be? But all that matters is making what I do have the best and holy I can be. As Fr. Serpa told a poster on Catholic answers, you can’t look back and wonder “what if” you have to take the path you can take now and ask God to guide you, don’t harp on paths you didn’t take or took wrongly.
Good advice I think…
Michael,
Why do you feel that any clergy or religious who leave the life are unable to ever lead a holy life again? There are many ways to serve God. They are not lost forever. Daniel’s post was a perfect example of that. He is happy and at peace teaching RCIA and as he said is very active in his parish. Praise God for his years of service as a priest.
At least he’s not playing for the other team or joined the ranks of a few lost and misguided souls who have taken to writing books filled with ridiculous lies and accusations of our faith (such as the aborted babies of nuns buried behind a convent?)
I and others in our parish were recently very shocked to hear that a former priest in our parish has chosen to leave the ministry. He was a wonderful and selfless soul a true and holy priest who touched many lives. Even though he left, his years as a priest were not in vain and he did make a difference, even if it was only for 16 years. We have to thank God for those years. I continue to pray for him daily that he is at peace with his decision and that God walks with him in whatever path he chooses.
I have no clue why he left; I only heard he was very unhappy for a long time. This only proves that we can never know another’s pain or struggles. Priests have such a tremendous responsibility to God and His people, perhaps many feel overwhelmed and that they can not measure up. Can you even imagine the torment some must go through when deciding to leave? It is the Church herself that probably makes them feel like they are letting God, the Bishop and the whole world down. We cannot immediately assume either that there is a woman involved.
These men are not failures.
Yes we need good priests and we need to pray for more vocations. God bless the ones who stick it out through thick and thin, but may God also bless the ones who for whatever reason, cannot.
Janine
Sorry, shouldn’t have mentioned them in the same sentence the way I did. Thank you for correcting that.
Deb,
We can limit the amount of our mistakes and falls simply by getting on our knees and praying for discernment. God always responds to “Knee- Mail”
People are human…you’re right and they also know when they’re doing the wrong things.
Three elements to mortal sin:
grievous matter, sufficient reflection, full consent of the will.
What motivates a person to go into religious life anyway? What motivates a person to do anything good?
It’s the ordaining and the permitting wills of God empowered by the Holy Spirit.
Scripture tells us that pride goes before a fall. God gives us many examples of this beginning with the fall in the garden.
“you can be like gods”
I think that people called to remain in religious life left because they took their eyes away from the Lord.
A woman married to a priest is in a perpetual state of adultery, and so is he.
Once a priest, always a priest right?
If he is laicised, he’s still a priest in the eyes of God right?
What does the church say about that?
It’s me again Michael – always ready for a good discussion.
You make many good and valid points and I am always in awe of your knowledge of the faith and obedience and loyalty to the church and Her priests.
However, again I ask you– do you honestly feel that Daniel has sinned because he did not keep his promise and remain a priest? Do you feel that I am sinner because I did not keep my promise to stay married? Did we have so much pride before the fall and act selfishly because we wanted to be at peace? You also previously stated that so many divorced people are living lives of sin. Is it just because they are divorced?
I was married to a man that abused me mentally, emotionally and verbally and also abandoned me physically and emotionally as well. There was no marriage as far as I was concerned despite my efforts to go to counseling. I left this man on my own volition because I truly would have ended up in the looney bin. And that’s the God’s truth.
I wanted things to end up differently. My entire life has been a huge disappointment and I struggle with depression to this day (and this was over 13 years ago). I did the “right” thing and got the marriage annuled and try my best to live a good and chaste Catholic life. It is not easy being lonely. God has yet to bless me with the right person, another partner to grow old and share my life…to have the type of marriage as He intended all of us to have. Perhaps he wants me to live out my life alone..I do not know. I don’t willingly choose to be celibate as priests or religious do, but God and my fiath demands it of me and I must obey. This is just the way it is, I may not like it but I have no choice.
Yet if I still had to do it all over again, I would leave the man I married. I have more peace than I did when we were together.
I don’t think God wants any of us to be miserable while in this life. Yes we have an eternal destiny and untold joy with Him–but in my heart I just cannot believe he wants us to suffer in this world either. With that said, there is such a thing as having a cross to bear and redemptive suffering, but I truly believe that the God that sits on His almighty throne can’t possibly wish us an earthly life filled with despair and confusion day in and day out. He wants us to be happy here too. He can reveal Himself in so many ways and the road to true discernment for any of us is not always so cut and dry.
Anyway, that’s how I feel. Just try to put yourself in other’s shoes sometimes is all – if we make an honest effort and it does not work out for us – perhaps God wants something different for us.
God bless you
Janine
I don’t think the church would think he was in a state of mortal sin if they laicised him. They consider him a priest the same way I am considered Catholic because my parents baptised me (at least my childhood priest told me that)
Michael, I wish all priests and nuns went into the holy orders with pure hearts…some really did think they had a vocation, maybe they were in love with the idea of being a priest/nun the same as an old friend of mine was “in love with being in love and wanted to get married”. She made a bad choice too. They all prayed, but some of us only hear our own voices…it takes a great amount of grace and will to be silient to hear God’s. (I still work on that)
I was humbled and mildly surprised over the years to hear priests tell me that they became one for a variety of reasons..because their brother couldn’t and he was next in line(Irish family) their parents pushed them into it, there weren’t any jobs. An Italian priest told me many “non-college” types, thought “3 squares and a bed”. One 60 year priest told me he heard celibacy might end in his lifetime when he graduated from the seminary, although that didn’t happen and some left in his class when it was clear it wouldn’t. Some wanted to stay single for various reasons and the seminary kept the “when are you going to settle down” questions at bay. That’s not to say they weren’t good Catholics or bad people, I’m not judging, but that burning to be a priest wasn’t just to serve…they were doing it for other reasons also. God can make some of our poor choices work out sometimes, so-so marriages get better, priests get a new fervor, but as long as we are human, we will sin and we will make mistakes, with and without prayer.
Today priests and nuns go into their vocation with much more openess, there is more discernment. I hope along with you for more priests and religious that will help the church renew the faith of the fallen and help bring us back to a stronger church. I am grateful for every priest like Fr. Joe that brings Christ to us and I cry inside everytime I read we lost someone…..but I don’t think a priest should stay if he doesn’t want to serve.
Janine,
I hope that you had a nice Labor day. I will respond to your post in capital letters
However, again I ask you– do you honestly feel that Daniel has sinned because he did not keep his promise and remain a priest? I BELIEVE THAT ONCE A PRIEST ALWAYS A PRIEST. DIDN’T JUDAS IN BY DENYING AND REFUSING THE LOVE OF GOD? HIS LEAVING IN AND OF ITSELF WAS BETRAYAL.
Do you feel that I am sinner because I did not keep my promise to stay married? Did we have so much pride before the fall and act selfishly because we wanted to be at peace? You also previously stated that so many divorced people are living lives of sin. Is it just because they are divorced? GOD HATES DIVORCE VERY MUCH BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, HE DOESN’T EXPECT A PERSON TO STAY IN A RELATIONSHIP THAT’S ABUSIVE. IF A SPOUSE KEEPS “TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK,’ THAT CAN LEAD TO AN OCCASION OF SIN FOR THE OTHER SPOUSE. I WOULD SAY THAT ALL OF US ARE SINNERS WHETHER WE’RE MARRIED OR DIVORCED. TO DENY THAT WE’RE SINNERS IN NEED OF GOD’S MERCY IS THE GREATEST SIN (JP2). WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO IS CATHOLICS ONCE MARRIED IN THE CHURCH THEN REMARRIED WITHOUT AN ANNULMENT.
THE CHURCH DOESN’T RECOGNIZE THAT AS A VALID MARRIAGE AND YES, THEY ARE LIVING IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF MORTAL SIN, AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.
I was married to a man that abused me mentally, emotionally and verbally and also abandoned me physically and emotionally as well. There was no marriage as far as I was concerned despite my efforts to go to counseling. I left this man on my own volition because I truly would have ended up in the looney bin. And that’s the God’s truth.
IT’S GOOD THAT YOU ENDED THAT SOUR RELATIONSHIP. THE MAN HAD NO BUSINESS BEING MARRIED IN THE FIRST PLACE IF HE HAD SUCH SERIOUS PROBLEMS. ANY MAN WHO HITS A WOMAN IS A COWARD AND A WORM. NO, I DON’T THINK THAT YOU WERE WRONG AT ALL. SOMETIMES PEOPLE APPROACH THE AlTAR KNOWING THAT IT’S A FORBIDDEN RELATIONSHIP AND GO AHEAD WITH IT ANYWAY. MY WIFE’S COUSIN, FOR INSTANCE, HAD THE COURAGE TO END HER ENGAGEMENT ONE WEEK BEFORE HER WEDDING DAY BECAUSE SHE REALIZED THAT HER FIANCE HAD A SERIOUS DRUG AND ALCOHOL PROBLEM. SOMETIMES PEOPLE ENTER MARRIAGE THINKING THAT THEY CAN CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON, WHEN IN REALITY, THEY CAN’T. TO ME, THAT’S THE SIN OF PRIDE AND BOTH PEOPLE PAY FOR IT DEARLY.
I wanted things to end up differently. My entire life has been a huge disappointment and I struggle with depression to this day (and this was over 13 years ago). YOU HAVE CHRIST LIVING INSIDE OF YOU AND DON’T EVER FORGET IT!!!!! DON’T YOU DARE EVER HANG YOUR HEAD LOW EVER AGAIN!!!! YOU JUST REMEMBER WHO IT IS THAT LIVES INSIDE OF YOU!!!!! I did the “right” thing and got the marriage annuled and try my best to live a good and chaste Catholic life. HOW MANY CATHOLICS THUMB THEIR NOSES AT THE CHURCH AND THE ANNULMENTS? SOME ARE TOO CHEAP TO PAY THE $800.00 IT COSTS, BUT WE KNOW THAT’S BESIDE THE POINT. WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS THE LIFE OF THE SOUL IN THE CHURCH. JESUS SAID” APART FROM ME, YOU CAN DO NOTHING.” It is not easy being lonely. YOU’RE NOT ALONE AND STOP THINKING THAT YOU ARE. I ASKED MY MONK FRIEND IF HE EVER FEELS LONELY AND HE SAID: “MICHAEL, I NEVER FEEL LONELY BECAUSE I’M NEVER ALONE.” God has yet to bless me with the right person, another partner to grow old and share my life…to have the type of marriage as He intended all of us to have. YOU DON’T REALIZE THAT YOU HAVE THE MOST PERFECT MAN IN YOUR LIFE ALREADY. NO ONE CAN EVER TAKE HIS PLACE. Perhaps he wants me to live out my life alone..I do not know. HE TELLS YOU TO BE STILL AND KNOW THAT HE IS GOD. YOU’RE NOT ALONE JANINE, SO STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP ABOUT IT. YOU COULD STILL BE MARRIED TO THE ABUSER OR BE SINGLE AND BE IN PEACE. I WOULD RATHER BE SINGLE AND BE IN PEACE. I don’t willingly choose to be celibate as priests or religious do, but God and my fiath demands it of me and I must obey. GOD BLESS YOU. HOW MANY SINGLE PEOPLE ARE SEXUALLY ACTIVE TODAY AND THE WORLD TELLS THEM THAT IT’S OK? WELL IT’S NOT OK. CHASTITY IS WHEN A PERSON HAS A HEART FOR GOD ALONE. THE GREATEST EXAMPLE OF THIS IS THE BLESSED MOTHER. SHE IS THE PERPTUAL VIRGIN AND MOTHER. This is just the way it is, I may not like it but I have no choice.
REST IN THE LOVE OF GOD. HE LOVES YOU AS IF YOU WERE THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS WORLD. HE DOES.
Yet if I still had to do it all over again, I would leave the man I married. I have more peace than I did when we were together.
ONE OF THE SIGNS OF THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS PEACE. NO PEACE USUALLY MEANS NO GOD. THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR MARRIAGE WAS THAT YOUR SPOUSE PUT HIMSELF BEFORE GOD, WHEN GOD OWNED THE MARRIAGE. THAT’S WHY IT FAILED AND HE LOST OUT ON A BEAUTIFUL GIFT IN YOU.
HE ABUSED THE GIFT SO GOD TOOK IT AWAY FROM HIM.
I don’t think God wants any of us to be miserable while in this life. HE NEVER PROMISED US PERFECT JOY OR CONTENTMENT IN THIS LIFE, ONLY IN THE LIFE TO COME. Yes we have an eternal destiny and untold joy with Him–but in my heart I just cannot believe he wants us to suffer in this world either.YES AND NO. THERE’S NO EVENT IN THIS TEMPORAL LIFE THAT CANNOT BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO JESUS ON THE CROSS. REMEMBER WHEN YOU ASKED ME IF YOU COULD BORROW THESE WORDS: “LIFE IS FULL OF MINI DEATHS AND MIN RESURRECTIONS?” SUFFERING IS A PART OF LIFE. NO ONE SUFFERED MORE THAN JESUS DID WHILE HE WALKED THIS EARTH. HE TOOK SUFFERING FROM US, BUT HE ALSO GAVE US A SHARE IN IT TOO. With that said, there is such a thing as having a cross to bear and redemptive suffering, but I truly believe that the God that sits on His almighty throne can’t possibly wish us an earthly life filled with despair and confusion day in and day out. “COME TO ME ALL OF YOU TIRED FROM CARRYING GREAT LOADS AND I WILL REFRESH YOU. LEARN OF ME FOR I AM MEEK AND HUMBLE OF HEART.” He wants us to be happy here too. He can reveal Himself in so many ways and the road to true discernment for any of us is not always so cut and dry.
IF GOD TOLD US EVERYTHING, OUR MINDS WOULD PROBABLY EXPLODE. IF IT WERE CUT AND DRY ALL OF THE TIME, WE WOULDN’T HAVE THE NEED TO USE HIS GIFT OF FAITH TO US. WE CANNOT PLASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH.
Anyway, that’s how I feel. Just try to put yourself in other’s shoes sometimes is all – if we make an honest effort and it does not work out for us – perhaps God wants something different for us. JANINE, UP YIL NOW, I HAVEN’T SAID TO MUCH ABOUT MY PERSONAL LIFE EITHER. I CAN TELL YOU THAT MY LIFE, PRIOR TO MY MARRIAGE, WAS A LIVING HELL. I KNOW ALL ABOUT ABUSE OF EVERY KIND AND GOD DID ME A GREAT FAVOR BY ALLOWING ME TO GO THROUGH THE FIRE. THE WORSE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN LIFE OFTEN TURN OUT TO BE THE BEST THINGS THAT HAPPEN. YOU WOULDN’T BE AS STRONG AS YOU ARE UNLESS YOU WENT THROUGH WHAT YOU DID. WE’RE ALSO SUPPOSED TO PRAY FOR THOSE WHO NAIL US TO OUR CROSSES.
NOT AN EASY THING TO DO, BUT WE HAVE TO CONFORM OUR WILLS TO THE INFINITE WISDOM AND WILL OF GOD. HE DESIRES THE SALVATION OF EVERYONE. WHEN YOU PRAY FOR YOUR EX, YOU BECOME ANOTHER JESUS ON THE CROSS AND ANOTHER ST. MONICA ORAYING FOR THE SALVATION OF AUGUSTINE. PRAYER MOVES MOUNTAINS. THAT’S THE GREATER GOOD THAT GOD SEES AND LOVES.
TAKE CARE
MICHAEL
DEB,
I feel that if an ordained priest leaves then gets involved with a woman, the woman is still sleeping with a priest laicised or not.
once a priest always a priest.
All I can say is that God doesn’t stop us from making serious mistakes. That would be an infringement of His gift of free will to us. He would never interfere in that, unless our actions became a call to justice. That’s up to Him.
I don’t think that a priest should stay either if he doesn’t want to . I wouldn’t want a priest at my parish if he didn’t want to be there.
I think that it’s more difficult for a man who was sexually active prior to seminary than one who was chaste. I’ll bet that most of the priests that left the priesthood were sexually active before they entered the seminary.
I’m not judging anyone.
I have enough to worry about in my own life.
Like many of you, I have strong feelings about the keeping of vocational promises, those of celibate priests and of married laity alike. But I would also ask you to be welcoming of those who might share their stories on this Blog. As I have said before, we can never totally stand in another man’s shoes. I am careful never to judge individual priests any more than married couples who struggle with their commitments. Sometimes we just do not know all the facts, and the facts can make a real difference.
Priests who leave ministry can be laicized and released from their promises. They can receive the absolution of another priest in the sacrament of penance and get married and have a family. Such a man is a priest forever, but he no longer has faculties to function as a priest, except in the direst emergencies. He can live the remainder of his life in a state of grace. He might even find a personal happiness that escaped him while he was an active priest.
Sure there is a scandal with a priest leaving his ministry; but, it would be far more tragic if a priest tried to have it both ways, betraying both the Church and a woman he claims to love. I may be a poor priest, but I am sick and tired of bad priests— those who keep women on the side, who act out their homosexuality, who abuse children, or who treat the Church like a cold business, hurting or ignoring the needs of the people they were called to love and serve.
God’s grace has been good to me, but I am fully aware of the weight of loneliness, the subtlety of sin, and the price of weakness. Some men should never have been priests, and here I fault formation programs too eager for recruits to notice the warning signs. Some men could wear the collar, but they have no fire and would spend their lives as grumpy old bachelors. Some men love God and the Church so much, they could never imagine being anything but a priest— it is not what they do but who they are.
Thank you Fr. Joe.
I love and respect every man ordained to the priesthood . I have many friends who are priests. I am also saddened if/when one leaves.
I have experienced first hand a married priest saying a funeral Mass for a family member while his wife sat in the pew behind me in disbelief.
Every cell of my body wanted to grab him and throw him out of the church. The pastor of the parish was unaware that he didn’t have the faculties to function as a priest.
I don’t think that the guy was properly dispensed anyway.
Janine and Father,
You’ve both touched on something very important that I would like to elaborate on.
Every human was created to love and to be loved. Being alone and being lonely are two different things. You probably feel lonely more than I do because you’re both unmarried.
I can recall my single days when I would feel lonely too. Whenever I got like that, I would go to a local nursing home and visit with those poor folks who never received any company. I made many friends that way. I still go about every other day because my mother-in-law resides in a nursing home.
I can tell you that visiting the shut ins and the elderly does great things because it’s a corporal and spiritual work of mercy. It puts my mind on God and takes me away from myself.
I consider these visits as holy hours because whenever I go to a nursing home, I see Jesus in each person. I don’t really think of them as old people. I think of them as children waiting to go home to their heavenly Father and Mother. This is what I do when I feel lonely.
I love God in all, especially in the elderly.
Most of them are in the redemptive suffering stage of life. If one of them is near death, I always pray the chaplet of Divine Mercy at their bedside.
Michael
I know what you mean about the elderly.
I take communion to nursing home once a month and there is one lady in particular who always has a rosary in her hand. This woman is such a sweetheart. She is all alone. Her husband died over 40 years ago and she never had children. She has one sister who is also not well herself. It is so sad to see these poor people who have no one. She says to me “why am I still here?” She hugs and kisses me and it is hard to leave her..I do admit to spending more time with her than others. She is so special and waits for her Jesus every weekend.
SO many people abandon their elderly relatives and do not even bother to visit or call. It is an awful sinful shame.
Thank you for sharing and for your many kind and positive words. You are a sweetheart too.
God bless
Janine
Janine,
Thank you for your kind words too.
My mother-in-law shares her room with an elderly woman named Marie. Marie is going to turn 91 years old on Halloween. She was born in 1917 and her parents came from Italy. They settled in Bethlehem Pennsylvania and her father worked in a steel mill. Marie is in pretty good health for a person of almost 91 years. She out lived 2 husbands and her daughter died from cancer at the at of 69.
She always asks the same question as the little old lady with the rosary beads.
“Why am I still here?”
My response to her is always the same.
I tell her that she’s still here because she’s not ripe yet. I tell her that when she’s ripe, God will pluck her from this earth so fast that she won’t know what happened. She always laughs at that, but it’s true.
St. Therese the little flower used to say that God is anxious to pick a bunch of grapes. I am that bunch of grapes that He so desperately desires to pick. He did pick her at the tender age of 24. Funny that she was a Carmelite because the word Carmelite means garden of God. (The little flower)
The earth is a nursery and it contains all sorts of fruits,vegetables, nuts, weeds, plants and trees. God is the divine gardener. When our time comes, He plucks us so fast then transplants us into His heavenly garden…not a moment too soon and not a moment too late.
That’s how God feels about us.
What we are is God’s gift to us. What we become is our gift to God.
I got to this site by googling Fr. John Klobuka, 30 years a Marianist, a wonderful priest. I was horrified when I saw this link was about scandals. (My reaction was “Not Father Klobuka!”) No not Father Klobuka.
After plowing through, the only reference to him was the siimlar name to former Father John Mary Klobuchar MFVA, one of the first ordained EWTN priests.
I suspect that Klobuchar hurt Mother Angelica’s heart badly; he was one of her first sons with Father Joseph. As another poster said, Klobuchar left the priesthood. I think it was about the same time as the scandal of Fr. Ken Roberts, about a decade ago. It wasn’t clear to me which she was referring to when Mother told us off royally “on air” about not condemning fallen priests. Very important words!
Father Angelus sounded a wee bit sorry when the MFVA elected one of their own as guardian last year. The order had grown and was ready to go the next step, rightly. I hope Fr. Angelus is doing welll in this phase of his priestly life, pushing 80.
To give some background on why I’m posting, which has been anathema for me:
One of my college profs in the ’60s left his order, married and died of a heart attack. These were all the facts I got when I ran into another prof from the same order decades later.
Another priest who gave me vital spiritual insights left the priesthood years ago.
These incidents helped me realize the treasure of the catholic priesthood. I continue to pray for them, for Father Francis Mary and ALL priests and all those called.
How will each of us answer at our judgement about how we cared for His priests, for they are HIS (and His religious and His families and His singles?)
As another wonderful priest once told me:”Priests are on the front lines of the battle against evil and have no protection but our prayers.” PRAY, people! NOW and as long as you have breath.
By the way, I am a celibate single parent. I got single-parent status when my kids were toddlers, now grown and made me a happy grandparent, all following a necessary divorce and later decree of nullity. My life is consecrated joyfully to God through Mary. Totus Tuus. Never have I ever been as lonely as when I was “married” with a person right next to me. Never have I been happier than now, though life is so different than I expected.
Having Some Body is NOT the cure all, for priests or anybody else. But the grass can appear greener if we don’t discern God’s Will. His Will is all that really matters.
His Love is greater than any earthly love could ever be.
Guess what, folks, celibacy is for anybody who’s not validly married. Guess what else… The Church follows the wisdom of the ages given by God, whether popular or not, in season or out. It’s THE WAY!!! Don’t play with fire and not expect to get burned.
We get insurance for cars, homes, etc. PLEASE, everyone, use the insurance given to us by the Church to safeguard our faith and our souls. I want to meet you all in heaven. Let’s pray for each other and all our brothers and sisters in God’s huge family.
THANK YOU to Father Joe and Michael, You both have the patience of Job. The posts by Roseanne and Miruna were outstanding. Miruna exemplifies what I infer from Father Groeschel’s statements: Persecution yields strong Catholics/Christians.
May God bless us all.
A child of God & Mary
Thank you for your kind words, but I can’t take credit for anything. Besides, this is Fr. Joe’s blog and anything that I write takes a back seat to him.
If the Holy Spirit IN ME desires to use my fingers or someone else’s to type out a response, then that’s really none of my business.
We already know and realize if what we read is true or if it’s just the old man toying with us again.
The Holy Spirit gives to us the vision that we need to know and to love God in written truth and in others.
I also want to apologize for some of the things that I’ve written, especially for writing:
” I don’t care what Fr. Joe says.” THAT’S NOT TRUE AND THAT’S NOT WHAT I’M MEANT TO WRITE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
I DO CARE WHAT FR. JOE SAYS…. VERY MUCH.
I value his teachings and his opinions.
What I meant to write was that I know that I can receive communion in the hand, but my personal preference is to receive on the tongue.
I’m not known for being the most subtle of God’s creatures. Sorry again Fr. Joe.
A child of God & Mary
I’m a hard headed Italian from Philly,so that should tell you right there.
Michael
We all love you – this blog would not be the same without you!
Thank you Janine.
You’ve also seem to have come a long way since your initial posts here.
There’s nothing wrong with loving another person, so long as that particular love is other centered and not self centered, ordered and not disordered.
I have to express that I do get very angry and upset when certain people come here and write foul things about priests and Catholics.
Not every priest is a bad priest and not every Catholic is a bad Catholic.
Fr. Joe has always been gracious and patient enough to oblige their ignorance. I enjoy reading his responses to them because he is very direct and thorough about what the church teaches. What they do with it is on them. Even though they might not necessarily agree, they still “swallow the bait.” His replies remain in their memories for future growth.
When I was in second grade I was a member of the glee club. One of our songs back then was ” They will know we are Christians by our love.” Remember that song?
I have a message for those who come to this site only to be deliberately rude and offensive and it is this:
DON’T GENERALIZE ABOUT CATHOLICS OR OTHER CHRISTIANS.
YOU CAN’T CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN AND BE HATEFUL AND OFFENSIVE. EVERY CHURCH, CATHOLIC OR NOT, HAS IT’S SHARE OF FALLEN SINNERS. IF YOU WERE BORN INTO THIS WORLD, YOU ARE A SINNER TOO.
We realize too that our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI is a sinner, although his teachings on faith and morals are ALWAYS infallible.
God uses broken vessels to carry water.
The ones who defend sin are usually living in sin. The rest of us are humble enough to know and to admit that we are sinners in need of God’s mercy. We’re also positive deviants, like Benedict XVI. Walking wounded and fighting the good fight for Christ.
Janine,
I think that this is a good time of year to remind others of the need to always be ready to meet God. Yes, I’m talking about the tragic events of September 11, 2001 when 3000 innocent lives were snuffed out by evil and sinister people.
I can’t help but remember the heroes of flight 93 as they fought bravely to gain control of that plane. The sacrifices that they made saved literally hundreds of lives. I can only imagine the enormous amounts of devastation that would have occurred had that ill fated flight reached the Whitehouse or the Capitol building. History has taught that God always raises the greatest saints in times of crisis.
He does. The country is eternally indebted to them and I believe that there should be some kind of memorial for them in Arlington, if there isn’t one already.They were American soldiers without uniforms. They did what our government and our military failed to do.
The Lord tells us to always be prepared because He will come at a time when we least expect it….like a thief in the night. No one knows the day nor the hour. Those poor souls had no idea that they were only a few short hours away from meeting their creator.
How can we keep ourselves in a state of grace? Jesus tells us that apart from Him we can do nothing. We have to remain close to Jesus by obeying His commandments, frequent use of the sacraments, daily prayer and meditation, devotion to the Blessed Mother (rosary) and to the saints, particularly St. Joseph….the patron of a happy death. God never refuses them anything because they never refused God anything while they lived on earth.
We must never fall into the sin of presumption. Presumption is taking the mercy of God for granted.
God is merciful, but He is also just.
A PRAYER FOR PRIESTS
Keep them, I pray Thee, dearest Lord,
Keep them, for they are Thine —
Thy priests whose lives burn out before
Thy consecrated shrine.
Keep them, for they are in the world,
Though from the world apart;
When earthly pleasures tempt,
allure, —
Shelter them in Thy heart.
Keep them, and comfort them in hours
Of loneliness and pain.
When all their life of sacrifice
For souls seems but in vain.
Keep them, and O remember, Lord,
They have no one but Thee,
Yet they have only human hearts,
With human frailty.
Keep them as spotless as the Host,
That daily they caress;
Their every thought and word and
deed,
Deign, dearest Lord, to bless.
Imprimatur:
+ Dennis Card. Dougherty, Arch. of Philadelphia
died 1951
I entered this as a prayer for mary’s Feast. Father Joe, it’s for you and ALL of the Lord’s priests. Mikki, one of your posts indicated you’re also a priest. If so, this one’s for you!
To everyone: I hope many will accept it as a gift to add to your prayer treasury. Please accept it as a reminder if you already know it. I try to pray it often.
Perhaps someone knows the origin of this beautiful prayer. First half of 20th century?
Child of God and Mary,
I found that prayer a few years back and thought it most touching and beautiful..so much so that I printed it out and added a picture of our Lord to it. I then made it into a beautiful bookmark as a simple going away gift to the priest that I felt so strongly for–a reminder that I never forgot his place in the world that God intended for him.
This holy priest is still in my thoughts and prayers daily basis, as are all priests.
Dear Father,
What exactly is the history concerning the requirement for priests to remain celibate? I thought I had learned in an early college history class that originally priests took wives as any other men would, but due to some sort of taxation brought on by the church, that changed. I’m not alleging anything- I just don’t quite understand where that rule applied.
Even though Jesus was the son of God, while on earth, he was a man. Isn’t there also some scientific/historic evidence that shows he too could have taken a wife? Again, I don’t presume to know anything.
I was raised in a Catholic, but broken family until I was adopted and am just now returning to look again at the religion. I have many of my own ideas and beliefs that don’t mesh with what the church says, but I am still curious to find out as much as I can. I believe my curiosity has been brought on by a good force in my life, and while I’m not running off to get baptized today, I am still very interested in it’s teachings.
Thank you.
The Jewish priests would take turns offering sacrifice at the Temple. During the duration of their service, they observed abstinence from sexual relations with their wives. The Catholic priests would offer perpetual sacrifice in the Mass. For this reason even some of the married clergy of the early Church evidently practiced perpetual celibacy within their marriages. St. Paul is on the record for admonishing men to be like him, single and celibate. However, there were married priests with families in the early Church.
Despite various efforts to mandate celibacy throughout the Church for priests, we would find married clergy throughout the first millennium.
The Council of Elvira in 306 taught: “Bishops, presbyters, deacons, and others with a position in the ministry are to abstain completely from sexual intercourse with their wives and from the procreation of children. If anyone disobeys, he shall be removed from the clerical office.”
The First Lateran Council in 1123 taught: [Canon 3] We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, and subdeacons to associate with concubines and women, or to live with women other than such as the Nicene Council (canon 3) for reasons of necessity permitted, namely, the mother, sister, or aunt, or any such person concerning whom no suspicion could arise. [Canon 21] We absolutely forbid priests, deacons, subdeacons, and monks to have concubines or to contract marriage. We decree in accordance with the definitions of the sacred canons, that marriages already contracted by such persons must be dissolved, and that the persons be condemned to do penance.
The Second Lateran Council in 1139 states: “[Canon 6] We also decree that those who in the subdiaconate and higher orders have contracted marriage or have concubines, be deprived of their office and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they indulge in marriage and in impurities. [Canon 7] Following in the footsteps of our predecessors, the Roman pontiffs Gregory VII, Urban, and Paschal, we command that no one attend the masses of those who are known to have wives or concubines. But that the law of continence and purity, so pleasing to God, may become more general among persons constituted in sacred orders, we decree that bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, canons regular, monks, and professed clerics who, transgressing the holy precept, have dared to contract marriage, shall be separated. For a union of this kind which has been contracted in violation of the ecclesiastical law, we do not regard as matrimony. Those who have been separated from each other, shall do penance commensurate with such excesses.”
There is no evidence that Jesus ever took a wife. It is just as well, because St. Paul speaks about the Church being the bride of Christ. Further, while the incarnation is real and Jesus is fully human, he is also “always” fully divine. Given that marriage gives a joy that anticipates the marriage banquet of heaven, it would seem inappropriate that the one who is the eternal groom should have a particular relationship besides. He is literally the kingdom breaking into human history. The beatific vision is never broken. The testimony of Scripture is definitive in regards to the personal life of Christ. He was the Son of God and the Son of Mary. He had friends among men and women. However, he had no wife or biological children. His children and kindred are those who believe in him. Catholic priests in the West imitate his single-hearted love.
God speed Fr. Joe. Please continue to fight the good fight for our holy Catholic faith. May God bless you, Mother Angelica and EWTN for all that you do.
BW
Pray for the sick, and the elderly, and the unborn. Thanks. Pray for the safety of all travelers, for John McCain, to become solid in his social policies, and not wishy-washy. He may have the Right to Life’s Endorsement, and he is the more pro-life of the two candidates, but, I am not so naive, that I don’t realize, he does not share the Catholic Church’s Understanding of the Sacredness of All Human Life,…whether conceived in rape, or incest,…that unborn little one, was/is created by God, and He alone, has the power, to call that child to Heaven. No Politician, can call themselves, “for life,” if they grade people, upon, the condition of their conception. That’s just plain, weird, and it discrimminates, against the rights, of that unborn child, inutero. John McCain, needs our prayers, to be authentically, pro-life, 100%. Pray he will listen to the guidance of the Bishops. Pray for our Economy too.
+One of my siblings is about to loose her house. I invited them to live here, but she “hints I should move,” and she use the house my dad has leased to me for 29 years. I don’t mind sharing, but, having me move out, so she can live in it, is outrageous, and presumputous. Since, I don’t own this house, my dad, may side with her. I am on disability.
+My Neck Injury, has flared up again. Pray 4 Me. Thanks.
I may have to go to the Emergency Room, to access it.
+I have never seen my sister so desparate, so as to suggest such nonsence. She is not thinking clearing. Or, she has surcumbed to the calculated ways of my family, to get you when you’re down. *It never shocks me anymore, how calous, even Catholic Members of my family have become. Yet, my family did my mom in the same way. It is so weird, having such materialistic, and selfish siblings. Here I was willing to share my home with my sister, and she hints, I should move. She builds me up with a lot of jam, but, I always, see the pill, covered with it. It is so manipulative, to be nice to a relative, to see what you can gain by it.
Pray for the Elections, to be of God.
Pray for my sister, and her family, to calm, down and be respectful, of my rights, as well as their own. Thanks.
FR. Francis ( aka Dave Stone) has given up being a priest. Here is his new website:
http://www.davestoneinc.com/about.htm
LOL, that is a funny story of Mother Angelica and Bruno. It’s good to have friends in high places I guess.
I wanted to thank whoever it was — sorry, in the chain of conversation I forgot who said what, & who was addressing whom :-( — for solving a mystery for me.
I had a close, purely Platonic (seemingly) relationship with my spiritual director several years ago. From the standpoint of client (myself) + director (him), it would seem to have been an ideal relationship of ultimate openness, honesty. He was completely approachable & thus I was able to be utterly honest with him about everything spiritual in my life, including nonspiritual matters that directly affected my prayer life & relationship with God. I swear, he was more “available” than even a psychiatrist or an excellent physician. We just had a natural communication sympatico, it seemed. At first I thought he must be that way with everyone (one of these people who had a gift, a way, with people), and I certainly didn’t attribute the success of our relationship to something “special” I had. Last of all did I assume there were any feelings of attraction to me on his part. He was always very appropriate, as was I. No line was ever crossed by either one of us. We respected each other ultimately.
However, when I saw him with others, I noticed that he was not as much at ease with them as with me. I dismissed that for a long time. We got into some deep spiritual direction. I confided tremendously in him, some of the stuff quite intimate. (But again, nothing that I could really call ‘inappropriate.’) Suddenly one day, at a point when I could say that I was reaching my greatest success point in my prayer journey (“success point” = stupid phrase, but for want of a better one), at the beginning or end of my regular session with him, he announced very uncomfortably that he was suddenly moving to another State to take a teaching position, teaching a course he didn’t want to teach at all (& I could tell by his voice, & knew enough about his interests & background, that the dislike of the assignment was genuine). It was extremely abrupt and fell not at all within the pattern he had announced to me of where he wanted to go next with his life; like many priests in Orders, he was very educated & accomplished; the course & the institution were way beneath his training. He also, interestingly enough, announced that he would no longer have any contact with me, that there would be “no way for me to reach him” or something like that. Mind you, I had no intention of, LOL, stalking him, following him from a distance, etc. I only had a casual intention of letting him know from time to time how things were going, generally with me, I considered us compatible, genuine friends with similar intellectual interests & genuine emotional compatibility. (I have lots of seminarian & priest friends that I maintain contact with, given a long history of studying theology, & of making close Platonic friendships & being peer students with some of these men.)
When he made the announcement to me, he also seemed somewhat “hurt” is the only way I can describe it. I was just baffled, even stunned at the abruptness & the illogic of the move.
That session was the last I had with him.
I would also have to say that privately (& hopefully I never “communicated” this to him indirectly), I did find him very attractive, but did nothing to act on that — not flirting, making advances, saying suggestive things, etc. In fact, once he asked my advice on what kind of a gift he should/could give to a Jewish female friend. He seemed so innocent of the ramifications of gifts, & I wanted to warn him, when he suggested chocolate as an option, that he might want to be careful, because some women will read that incorrectly as “loaded.” Thus, I was quite conscious of protecting his preferential celibacy, & would have considered any other gesture as not loving toward him.
I just wonder if he left because he developed feelings for me. It would not be the first time this has happened to me in counseling when I have not sought it.
Thank you so much for the chance to share and hear of so many stories of hope and love. I would imagine that Christ is looking down on all of us with such love as he sees us struggle with the repercussions of original sin. As you look over the numerous comments you can see the various temperments and the gifts and weaknesses that go with each. Where Michael finds it easy and even compulsory in his life to speak the truth, he MAY have more difficulty with patience and compassion. Another may have all the compassion in the world(natural gift) but paralized when it comes to speaking out. God will use us all as instruments and moreso if we are in a state of grace. How lucky we are to be Christians and how privledged we are to be Catholics who have the sacraments so readily available for our salvation. All of you are in my prayers!!!
As the old saying goes, the only thng needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. The fact that we were forewarned in the Scriptures of the evils that would inevitably come is not that we might passively allow them to persist. In deed, Our Lady in Fatima set the Church on the greatest crusade against evil ever by caling upon men of good will to pray the Rosary and change their lives according to the gospel. They need top be dealt with charitably even thought the perpetrators act uncharitably. When the truth of the Nazi atrocities became public, many felt very uncomfortable and even today some deny that they ever happened. The same for the atrocities in China and the Soviet union by Mao Tse Tung and Stalin and by Pol Pot in Cambodia. The fact was that nothing is often done because it is very uncomfortable to confront evil because our consciences are not completely pure and to confront evil means we must confront it in ourselves, hence the call to conversion. The first call in confronting evil is to confront it in ourselves. In this way we can deal charitably with even the most horribleof sinners.
More at home, consider the difficulty that such heroes of the Church as Athanasius bore in confronting Arianism. Arius commanced well the multimedia of his day ad was able to produce a quite formidable stronghold through the use of his artistic talents. Is it any wonder, that with “biographical” books presenting lies as the truth, and satellite TV and two million watts of shortwave and the internet that the voices of those abused by Mother Angelica and her quandry have been so quelled. We presume that because one is successful that they are presenting the fuless of the truth, but abuse after bruse goes on and on in the name of “orthodoxy”, is it not time that serious correctionsbe made.
Yes, those who have had serious effects from the abuse in one form or another have been helped, but like the nightmares of Auschwitz, the memory does not cease to wound. It is a day by day thing, and to be cast out into an exile of a spiritual nature is a hrrible thing, perhaps worse than the five or more exiles sufered by Athanasius and the heroes of the Arian crisis.
Pope Pius X noted that one of the most difficult things about the Modernist quandry is the inability to put a finger on it. It is like Secular humanism, changing with the perceptions of time in a relativistic fashion. That perhaps is the most difficult thing with dealing with the error of Mother Angelica. ITs basic essence is that one can act without charity and mercy and then publicly claim to represent the mind of the Church. The gravest error with the modern move of orthodoxy that I have seen it the lack of charity that very often goes along with it. Orthodoxy is a demand of the Church, but it must stem from the greatest commandments, to love God and neighbor, otherwise it is not truly orthodoxy and it is headed for grave error.
I would like to make one little comment about the brothers and sisters I knew and loved and still do who became part of me through a covenant I made with God in the presence of the Church. They were all fine and excellent people, filled with joy (at least most of them) and love and a zeal for the gospel, for Jesus and our Lady. I think of them by name and pray for them. It broke my heart to see so many vocations seriously damaged and even destroyed by the events that occurred there in Alabama. It hurt most that after years of searching for a place to call home for my vocation, seeing the ravages of unhealthy liberalism in the Chruch even to some pretty sick things, of seeing men and women rejected in their vocations because they would not bend to the modern versions of errors. Even knowing that these things were destined to happen in fulfillment of the Word of God, it is very difficult to deal with them except in light of the Cross of my LOrd and Savior Jesus Christ. “Even the sparrow finds a home and the swallow a nest in which to place her young”. But “the Son of Man [had] no place to lay down his head and rest”
There is nothing in the bible that required the apostles to be celibate. I believe most of them were married including St. Peter. It says in the bible that he traveled and preached with his wife. It also says a bishop should be a good husband and father. It’s about time this law of celibacy is revoked. I believe it was only put in because the clergy were leaving there money to there family instead of the church. Jesus never told his followers to remain single. We should let the priests be married or single by their choice. Priests are human just like anyonelse. It’s an unfair unbiblical rule.
A celibate priesthood is superior to a married ministry. That is my conviction and I believe that the Church has every right to insist upon it.
We have good men among the married clergy with families.
But, I also feel sorry for them.
Fr. Joe
I mean no disrepect of your priesthood, but why do you feel your ministry is better than those of married ministers and why do you feel sorry for them? Please explain further.
The older I get (I am a cradle Catholic, age 50) the more I am beginning to question some of these long-held opinions and pious maxims about the priesthood.
Celibate love is superior to married love then also? Do you really believe this and does the church believe it as well?
I have unfortunately witnessed much vainglory in the priests I have known over the years.. I think Christ calls all of us, especially his priests, to humility.
Fr. you previously wrote: “The majority of men who leave the priesthood to get married ultimately have failed marriages. Promises are made to be kept. The problem is not the Church or God; the dilemma are people who are unwilling to surrender their lives fully to Christ. ”
How do you know that most of their marriages fail–do you keep reports on them? I fail to see why the church just can’t understand that a man can have a wife and still serve God–why must there be a choice between the two? He is not being unfaithful to God – or divorcing God ! That he is somehow being selfish for wanting to experience human love.
Better a man be a happy, peacful and loving ex-priest then one who remains a priest but is frustrated and bitter because he hasn’t been able to find the grace that is supposedly promised to him to live a life of loneliness and sacrifice. I would not want that kind of priest shepherding me.
Maybe some just can’t do it, no matter how hard they have tried! Consider yourself one of the lucky ones and do not admonish those would could not make it. We walk only in our own shoes and never know another’s struggles.
Janet,
I believe the celibate priesthood is superior to a married clergy precisely for the reasons that the Church does. Do you think that the Magisterium is capricious in this demand? No, there are good reasons to maintain the tradition.
I will be 50 years old in a few days. I have been a priest for over 22 years. I am a normal heterosexual male. I have always safeguarded my purity. The older I get, the more convinced I become in the teachings and disciplines of the Church. Today, more than when I was young, I am convinced that the celibate priesthood is a treasure we must maintain no matter what the critics might say. Most priests I know love their celibacy and would change nothing about it.
Yes, I really believe this and so does the Church. Indeed, the word “vocation” was once reserved to priesthood and religious life precisely because of the celibacy or virginity element. Most people will get married and have sexual relations; those who pursue the evangelical counsels and embrace a single-hearted love of God have been called to something higher, more spiritually perfect.
Married priests are not perfect either, and I could cite from history all sorts of self-righteousness and hubris on their part, too. Ministers with wives and families in other denominations also have problems. Half of all Lutheran ministers are divorced. We all need humility, lay and clergy alike. We especially need humility in regards to the teachings and disciplines of the Church. Humility would have us submit to her wisdom on such matters. Men who are generally called to the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church are given the grace of celibacy as a gift of the Holy Spirit. There is no conflict between the mind of Christ and the use of the keys by his shepherds.
Actually, the Church does keep follow-up reports on her priests, even those who leave ministry. The statistics reveal a high divorce rate for clergy who drop out to marry. You can also look to the rolls of organizations which illicitly employ married priests for ministerial purposes. The rate of failed marriages has varied from 50 plus % (in the 1960’s and 70’s) to 30% (more recent defections). We generally do not share such reports or figures.
A man can have a wife and serve God. No one disputes this. That is why we have thousands of married clergy, deacons in the Catholic Church. All of us are called to serve God. No one has a right to priesthood. No one deserves or merits ordination. Priestly vocations are pure gratuities from God but granted and affirmed by the Church. She has every right to specify mandatory celibacy. Why is it that critics cannot appreciate this right of the Church to manage her own ministries? Why is it that people who are not priests want to tell priests that they should be married or have the right to be married? I gave up that option when I answered God’s call. I am happy. Most priests accept it.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but along with most priests I know, we find this subject upsetting. We embraced our celibacy as a gift to the Lord FOR GOD’S PEOPLE, and yet many of them bemoan the fact. If those in the pews (and/or who have stopped going to Mass) cannot be appreciative, why will they not stop being busy-bodies in trying to tell celibate priests how to live and to define their priesthood? The true selfishness is with the apologists for married priests. The cry for married clergy is insulting to every celibate priest. We experience the heights of both divine and “human love” without having to commit ourselves to a single person or to engage in acts of sexual intercourse. The problem here is not the Church’s prohibition against married priests (which) is not absolute; but rather, those who malign as worthless the value of celibate love lived out by priests in imitation of our Lord Jesus and of many of his apostles like St. Paul and St. John!
God keeps his promises and so should we. If a priest is faithful to his prayer life and ministry he can know both happiness and peace. The time of decision is before ordination, not afterwards. We all know times of loneliness, but the “aloneness” of a priest is something entirely different. He is comfortable in his own skin. He needs no other human being to compliment or to perfect himself. He is a priest and priests render sacrifice. He offers the Mass and in his celibacy he offers his own flesh with that of Christ. Daily he says to God, I belong entirely to you. He expresses this devotion and love of God in his service of the flock. If YOU do not want that kind of priest to serve YOU, then I do not know what else to say.
I know the gentleness that should be shown to individuals. But when I speak about the priesthood as a whole, there can be no compromise. Priestly celibacy has a powerful eschatological meaning. It points to the kingdom that is breaking into our world. It best manifests our solidarity with the poor and the marginalized. It is no curse, but can become the engine that fuels the priest’s spiritual life and efforts at service. His focus is narrow and he looks upon his bride, the Church, without distraction. He goes where he is sent. He does what God and his bishop tells him to do.
It is true that we cannot walk in another man’s shoes; the priest wears the shoes of the apostles who were instituted as priests by Christ. Could it be that the priest, who abandons his ministry for marriage and/or cohabitation, opts to walk barefoot and unprotected? The Roman rite insists that a priest is shod (wears shoes or sandles) at Mass. The tradition of Rome is that a working man puts on his working shoes or boots. The work of a priest is the Mass and so he puts on his shoes. When he takes his shoes off, his work is over. Priests who leave ministry for marriage have taken off their shoes. They have walked off the job. Hopefully there will be other priests to take up the work and to care for the people who were abandoned.
Father Joe
Why does everything have to be in the Bible? Show me where it says that all truth is contained in the Bible. It doesn’t.
Tradition is SOOOOOO precious and valuable.
Tradition is LIVED TRUTH.
Think of the thousands of things that Jesus had done that weren’t recorded in the Bible.
The celibate priesthood is a tremendous gift from God to the church. He gives the church men who aren’t distracted by day to day family life. Priests have already have children and that’s why we call them Father.
Janice, imagine yourself being the wife of a Roman Catholic priest and the mother of his children. You would never get to see him often and the children would be your responsibility most of the time. You would probably get very disgusted very fast.
I know a minister and his families who struggle with this constantly. A man can’t be two places at once.
The greatest reason for both celibacy and chastity is to practice them because of love. Whether married, or unmarried, priest, or layperson, temptations come our way – and the best (and to me the easiest) reason not to give into temptations, is to remember that one has a commitment to a loving relationship. I think that a committed celibate priesthood helps a committed married relationship & vice versa. What society needs now more than ever are examples of commitment!
Fr. Joe
I began my post with the statement “I mean no disrespect to your priesthood” I want you to know that I meant that.
Perhaps the way I wrote my comments came off in the wrong way and I sincerely apologize if insulted you or the priesthood. I am sorry if you think I am a busybody too.
The fact is that Catholic laypeople have been asked their opinion and i have read the results of many surveys–this is what I read and hear: the majority of Catholics simply feel that priests should be given a choice. However, this does not mean we all “bemoan” celibacy nor are we unappreciative! I speak mainly for myself, but I know my many Catholic friends happen to feel the same way.
Fr. Joe I happen to think that the celibate priesthood, lived out truly and with faithfulness, is a most beautiful thing. And you miscontrued my statement that I do not want a priest to shepherd me. That is not what I said. I said I do not want an unhappy, bitter and unfulfilled priest shepherding me. Unfortunately through my experience I have seen more than enough of them and they have hurt others who look to them for spiritual guidance and comfort. I am sorry if that upsets you. I did not want you to take umbrage at all of my comments or think I am critical of the priesthood as a whole.
If a man can truly sacrifice his entire life to God and the church, I think that’s wonderful! However, you repeat again “Men who are generally called to the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church are given the grace of celibacy as a gift of the Holy Spirit.”
If this were indeed true for every single priest, then why do so many struggle and end up leaving? The only point I was trying to make was, if they do leave, why treat them like lepers and failures as well?
Many of us laypeople are naturally going to wonder why there so many churches closing doors due to lack of interest in the priesthood and the shortage of priests everywhere. What are we supposed to think?
I am happy and glad to hear that you and many of your brother priests are deeply fulfilled in your ministry. Perhaps the media focuses too much on the malcontented ones. It does not make for as interesting a news topic I suppose. True I have known some lousy priests but I have also been fortunate enough to know a few whom I felt were true holy Apostles of the Lord. Ones whose ministries bore much fruit in my life as a Catholic.
You also write “The true selfishness is YOURS. YOU are insulting every celibate priest.” This is simply not true Father!–again I am sorry if you took it the wrong way and I do think you were being unduly harsh with me and also very touchy.
This is a blog and I thought we were permitted to post here for purposes of discussion and debate, but know I meant no animus towards you or any true priest.
God bless you,
Janet
I want to respond to some comments here:
“She [the church] has every right to specify mandatory celibacy.”
Personally, I’m certainly not disputing this. However, unlike you, Father, it is not my observation that the percentage of ordained priests who have been given such a celibacy charism begins to approach 100% of ordained priests. I wouldn’t know what the percentage is, but either the grace is not as universal as you insist, some vocations not as keenly discerned as they should be, guidance or redirection not there, or something. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be priests who grudgingly stick with celibacy much less joyfully than other priests do, priests who, by your admission, act out their sexuality on the side, and a sizeable number of priests who leave. I strongly believe that a small minority of priests are both capable of celibacy (that it accords enough with their nature, with the help of grace, to overcome temptation) and choose to reject graces, preferring self-indulgence. Au contraire, I think that the vast majority of priests who “act out” or leave were never meant for the difficult & unusual status of a straight, celibate priesthood. I may not be a priest, but I’ve known an awful lot of them, on very close terms, for a very long time.
I have absolutely no scientific proof for this statement, but it is just my observation that the vast majority of PEOPLE (not just priests, not just males) are made to be sexually fulfilled (that it is part of their *calling* in life to express their sexuality). I completely agree with you that celibacy is a precious gift that frees, yes frees, one to love in a more agape, less self-involved way. I only disagree as to the percentages who are truly called to such a CELIBATE priesthood. I may even agree with you that FOR THE SAKE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, celibacy is superior to the married state. (Sorry for shouting; I’m not angry. :-) ) No bolding options here.
Celibacy uniquely provides that opportunity for what we used to call in religious life “disinterested love” (not cold, just not egotistical) — a love which is universally rather than singularly felt & expressed. It is indeed a high calling. It allows for immersion in discipleship without conflicting personal commitments. I have had moments of experiencing this grace myself before, even though I have not had a sustained vocation to celibate religious life. Such grace allows one to see from the mountaintop, so to speak, or across the plains, equally, the value of each human being without an urge to possess any of those human beings. It is a different vision & perception of humanity, encompassing all while appropriating none.
I have also known a very tiny handful of true celibates out of the priesthood — a couple of men, a couple of women, who were more ascetically inclined & not as passionate as the next person for a deep life-long commitment with a member of the opposite sex. Not to say that they wouldn’t have welcomed such an opportunity, but it was not a critically defining role for them. These people seem to be called to be single lay people. Often they are also very involved in their careers & other pursuits. Whatever sacrifice they are incidentally making in not being married is a sacrifice that has not altered their personality or happiness to the degree that it interferes with their fulfillment. To me, that is an important aspect of a calling. I’m sure that *some* people know that at age 18 or 26, but most people do not. Most people cannot say definitively at a young age that they can take marriage or leave it. They have not experienced enough of life to say that.
I also agree with you that marriage is not a panacea, and brings with it its own practical problems for ministry. However, in a way, you are arguing against your own point when on the one hand you claim that celibacy is a superior ministerial state, while on the other conceding the difficulties of a married ministry. In theological terms, that would actually argue for the trials of marriage as a purifying element for a priest/minister, allowing him to deepen his virtue through personal sacrifice for a mate, as well as the sacrifices of juggling marital with ministerial duties. Clearly, celibacy sacrifices intimate affection, but it also escapes intimate disaffection! (At least, priests can generally look forward eventually to transfers from difficult peers, etc.) It is enormously difficult, sometimes requiring heroism, to stay with the same mate “forever,” and do so joyfully. That is true regardless of how “meant” for each other the couple is; regardless of how virtuous each is; regardless of how they take advantage of grace opportunities.
I think that many people, including some very conservative priests, would dispute that Holy Orders is a “higher” calling (as you said earlier). No question it is a special calling, a chosen calling. It requires rigorous & purifying love, but so does marriage. Marriage is not better than celibacy per se, i.m.o. It’s just different. Like celibacy, it provides unique opportunities for growth in sanctity & self-giving, & presents temptations (like celibacy) in violation of that.
My point (and I think the one area that I especially agree with Janice) is that there could be a place in the priesthood for several kinds of priests, several callings. For example, I met several years ago a married man who teaches high school religion. He loves religion and theology and youth and activism. He is not the typical contemplatively-inclined, more introverted seeker of a priestly vocation. He is an extrovert who is very charismatic with youth but feels called to be a priest & celebrate the Mass, yet he is forbidden to because he is married. The diaconate doesn’t go far enough for him. I believe he would be such an asset & a witness in the priesthood.
“The cry for married clergy is insulting to every celibate priest.”
I don’t think that lay people are being insulting or being the following:
“If those in the pews (and/or who have stopped going to Mass) cannot be appreciative, why will they not stop being busy-bodies in trying to tell celibate priests how to live and to define their priesthood?”
I think you misinterpret all such comments & views. I think the point is that we love priests and want more of them, and have met men in many walks of life who would make fine priests, were it not for the one aspect of celibacy. Further, I think having both married & celibate priests allows the faithful to appreciate both states & understand more how both states are differentiated from each other. I think both states offer an important witness. I think we do not want the following (quoting Janice):
“one who remains a priest but is frustrated and bitter because he hasn’t been able to find the grace that is supposedly promised to him to live a life of loneliness and sacrifice. I would not want that kind of priest shepherding me.”
I think there is a group of men that would be able to minister well while husbanding well. Perhaps there are fewer of those than those who need & benefit from celibacy to fulfill their ministry, but since that married option is good enough for the Eastern Rite, and was good enough for the early Church, I don’t see how it’s so threatening or “insulting” to allow for that option now. I see no benefit in pressuring celibate priests to change their state, or for the church to encourage that either. I agree that the primacy of celibacy should be encouraged as the more realistic option.
JMO. Hope I didn’t anger you. :-(
Like Janet, I mean no disrespect.
Charismata are gifts freely given from God. The charism of celibacy is given to any and all who are called to the priesthood in the Roman rite. Those who would deny this would be at odds with Catholic ecclesiology. God works in tandem with the Church he established. The Holy Spirit gives efficacy to the sacraments. Jesus extends his ministry through the shepherds he has appointed. God gives his servants what they need. This interaction is guaranteed by the keys given to St. Peter. Celibacy may be a greater sacrifice for some men than for others; however, God would not give a man such a vocation without also filling his heart and mind with the graces to fulfill it. God is not oblivious to the demand for compulsory celibacy in the West. Indeed, such long-standing traditions are regarded as guided by divine providence. While the requirement for celibacy is technically a discipline of the Church; it has accrued significant doctrinal elements over time— particularly in terms of the identification with Christ and the bridal analogy of the priest at the “marriage” banquet we call the Mass.
If it seems that not all priests are equipped with the charism of celibacy my response would be two-fold. First, while I once thought that a man could be confident in his vocation when he heard the bishop call his name, I am no longer so presumptuous. There was a story about a priest laicized by Rome because he was designated by the Mafia to become a priest so that he could better smuggle drugs in and out of the country. There is a similar dilemma with the priests who are pedophiles and pederasts. They should never have been ordained. Formation and psychological investigations should weed such men out. Child molesters, homosexuals and men lusting uncontrollably for women should not be ordained. Second, God gives his gift of celibacy, but the man must be properly disposed. That means that he is open to the charism, is in a state of grace and he values celibacy. What God gives the man; he must in turn, give back to God as a gift. Celibacy is a real sacrifice that honors God and benefits his people. It is an eschatological sign of the kingdom.
If priests fail in their single-hearted love, the fault is theirs— not God and not the Church’s demand for celibacy.
Except for a handfull of Protestant ministers who have subsequently been ordained, Pope Benedict and the bishops are resolute that the demand for perpetual celibacy will not change any time soon.
Even if it should change at some far off future date, such will come too late for those priests who defected in mass and in any case, they would not be retroactively restored to ministry.
We should have the mind of the Church and Pope Benedict XVI about this.
Father Joe,
I think you and I can agree on these statements of yours:
“while I once thought that a man could be confident in his vocation when he heard the bishop call his name, I am no longer so presumptuous.”
“Formation and psychological investigations should weed such men out. Child molesters, homosexuals and men lusting uncontrollably for women should not be ordained. Second, God gives his gift of celibacy, but the man must be properly disposed. That means that he is open to the charism, is in a state of grace and he values celibacy.”
My point being that it is difficult to be open to the charism when your self-knowledge on such basic stuff is still wanting. This is especially true of young, enthusiastic candidates. For example, in Novitiate, the responses varied to the commanded vows. Some people were fine, for example, with poverty and chastity, but just about went bonkers when the full scope of obedience became clear. (It was not clear prior to entrance that one’s pre-religious life would be the last one saw of an unrestrained, independent will. The dominance aspect was very difficult for some, & an idea they did not anticipate.) Others did not realize how materially they were inclined — how possessive they were about owning items, & how important that was to their identity — until they saw the implications of that vow once they entered.
Nevertheless, even poverty & obedience do not have the power of a biological drive such as sex. So if it was hard enough to discern one’s “attachment” to poverty & obedience prior to religious commitment, surely chastity (except for the ‘naturally’ ascetic few of the population) would present even greater challenges & surprises.
As to your other comment, I don’t think you need to worry about whether I’m “at odds with Catholic ecclesiology.” Not a subversive here.
Peace,
J.
CHIZZLE: Hi All, I have read this blog, and I must say it kept me away from work duties for a while. I have a lot of priest friends and the things that go on in priesthood is amazing. Its sad that the way Janine is criticized (a 50 year old woman!!!) for telling the truth and the other lady. I have had friends I know that have slept with priests over and over again, anytime I hear it, I always feel sick.
FATHER JOE: Reading your remarks, I can think of far sadder things that make me sick. You have friends who repeatedly sleep with priests? Why would someone associate with such reprobates? If you want to make a difference, confront both them and the priests. If that does not resolve the situation, inform the bishop. Simply writing about it on the Internet is not going to change much.
CHIZZLE: But you know what, no one is above mistakes!!
FATHER JOE: Multiple transgressions of this magnitude are not simply “mistakes”. The word MISTAKE implies a fumble or tripping, something which may happen with little if any moral implication. Fornication, adultery and breaking priestly vows are seriously wrong and contemptuous. Given the Church’s strong stands, it resounds as the height of hypocrisy. How can one take the kerygma of salvation seriously from preachers who are themselves in mortal sin?
CHIZZLE: It happened to me. I really like my priest. I am one of these kind of people that like doing things for priests with no strings attached. My only fall is that I am very attractive. Well, what started out as a friendship led to more intimacy, and in the last two years, we have shared a couple of kisses (3 to be precise) PLS ALL I AWAIT YOUR CRITICISMS.
FATHER JOE: Is this for real? There are kisses and then THERE ARE KISSES. If you are talking about the passionate kind, then you are playing with fire! Maybe certain cultural elements are different in Africa where you live; but human nature is the same the world over. If you and the priest have strong or romantic feelings for each other, then you should both make distance. Anything else is not to take his vocation seriously. No excuses can be made, break off your relationship before it is too late.
CHIZZLE: Thing is, we don’t desire to spend our lives together, I think what brought us together might be loneliness, as I just broke up with my ex, and not wanting to start off a casual sex relationship, I clung to someone I thought will help me be strong. We speak every night, but I ask him if this is distracting to him, and he says he can handle it.
FATHER JOE: He is fooling himself, given what else you say. If you are really his friend, tell him goodbye.
CHIZZLE: Well, thing is, the kisses I will say happened in moments of weaknesses.
FATHER JOE: Such expressions of intimacy combined with weakness can lead to other things as well. There is no way to justify it. Further, you were married which makes these little acts of adultery.
CHIZZLE: I really feel bad this has happened and I feel I should have known better, but there is one thing I know, when this thing strikes you forget this person you see is still a priest (that’s what the devil does to you).That is why I no longer condemn my friends but pray for them.
FATHER JOE: You should feel bad. Yes, you should have known better. If you know true remorse and repentance then you should do something about it. Obviously you cannot be this priest’s friend and he is either fooling himself or caught up in lies about it all.
CHIZZLE: Well, we are still friends, close friends, we still talk everyday. We only had one outing this year, really we try as much as possible to keep stuff in check, it’s only after any outing we have the unfortunate incident of sharing a kiss.
FATHER JOE: An outing might be regarded as dating. If you are wise you will end it.
CHIZZLE: I dont know, what I want to say is those that have done worse are not talking, there is indeed worse, I can remember another my priest telling me his story, he is elderly now, it is enough to make my toes curl, plus do you know how many have kids outside? all hidden?
FATHER JOE: Do you think knowing the sins of others somehow makes your trespasses more tolerable? Why would priests confess their scandalous acts to you? This makes me suspicious of your statements. I am sickened by your comments. The whole situation and network of clergy with whom you are involved is very unhealthy.
CHIZZLE: But I will still say, don’t condemn, Janine, Fr Francis Stone or whatever or any other person. They all need prayers.
FATHER JOE: I have condemned no one. But there is still right and wrong.
CHIZZLE: You know what the first two kisses happened last year, when I knelt down in front of the blessed sacrament and told God, I was very sorry, I had this kind of vision where I saw the devil telling me, I thought you felt you were very strong, I hope you can see you are still human…That killed me…
FATHER JOE: Kneeling and praying before the Blessed Sacrament is a good thing. However, I would be very concerned about visions and revelations from the devil. He is not interested in helping you or priests. He is the father of lies. He wants to devour your soul. Human beings may be weak, but by God’s grace, they can be made strong. We are sinners, but we can be transformed as saints.
CHIZZLE: I wish you knew the kind of person I am, I am not a temptress though I am attractive. But I realized something, Janine and all; you can get back on your feet again.
FATHER JOE: You mention again and again that you are attractive. This may be true; it may also signify a self-fascination. You may not be a traditional temptress, but I suspect there is something about your manner that is flirtatious.
CHIZZLE: We talk about his future as a priest, and he talks so passionately about it, maybe that is why I am not so bothered that I am a threat. He has promised to officiate my wedding mass when I eventually get married.
FATHER JOE: You mentioned an EX and yet now you are talking about eventually getting married? As for his future as a priest, he should be less ambitious about the future and more cognizant about his actions in the present. If you want to move on and maybe start again, apply for annulment and distance yourself from a man with whom you can have no licit romantic relationship.
CHIZZLE: And we have promised to make a double, conscious effort at being better people. We have fallen, we can get up. Jesus never stayed down when he fell. This priest in question is a very good priest, if I should rank him, he still stands as one of the best.
FATHER JOE: It is not your place to rank him. In any case, you are too close to be objective. If you are serious about your repentance and amendment of life, you will give this priest plenty of space.
CHIZZLE: Guys, I’ sorry, I just felt I have to share this, oh, I know I will be condemned to hell, I accept all. I will communicate as often as possible
FATHER JOE: No one will condemn you to hell, but you must be serious about the situation. Do not play games. Otherwise, things can quickly get out of hand.
Hi Fr Joe,
Father Joe, your statement “Why would someone associate with such reprobates?”I do not know these priests, and I only talked to my friends about it.
And, I am sure that was not what Jesus told the prostitute that was almost stoned by the people. I can’t condemn them, but I can talk to them
The only priest I knew and I spoke to about it, I lost our friendship.
Fr Joe, I am quite disappointed in you, that you should say maybe certain cultural elements are different Africa. I do not think Africa is the issue that you should print it out so boldly. Was this an effort to tell other writers these things only happen in Africa?
You can as well let me know if you are racist so that I know I am can stop writing here.
Well, it is indeed possible that a priest who has changed in ways can tell you about his past.
I do not think I am flirtatious, I am only implying that anytime I tell others I have a priest friend, the first thing they say you know you are attractive, so be very careful
And please, I am not married and haven’t been, I was talking of an ex boyfriend.
Like I said, we only see thrice a year, and I have calculated that since seeing thrice or so per year, gives room for these vulnerabilities , it’s better we do not see, but still talk on phone.
Hello Michael, i await your words.
Chizzle, as a man I can assure you that it isn’t whether or not one is attractive, or not attractive physically. It is more the vulnerability, or possibility, of the relationship moving towards something physical that is MOST tempting. If there is no possibility of the relationship becoming physical, then physical beauty won’t matter – if conscious, or unconscious “signals” are given that a more serious relationship is a possibility, then almost anyone becomes suddenly very attractive. Fr. Joe is right – you are NOT avoiding the near occasion of sin, but indeed playing with fire…..
My advice would be to find another priest to minister to your spiritual needs.
Hi Father Joe,
Oh I see. But there is no problem. I think you are right; there is something wrong with that celibacy quote in Africa.
They here in Africa think it’s something you can’t avoid doing when you are a young priest, but when you get older you grow out of it,
I will of course work towards avoiding those friends of mine, I already have started anyway.
I still mean, a priest can tell you he once was after all worldly things but now, he is older he can actually see he was totally wrong, I wish there was some way I could explain this better.
Please pray for me.
Chizzle,
We lay people have to maintain an open mind when it comes to matters of faith and morals.
The church is very clear on her teachings and It’s our responsibility to learn and to live them more and more each day.
Fr. Joe is a very conservative and gifted man. I have never heard such opinions or words come from too many priests.
His job is a very simple one. That is to imitate Christ and to lead others to Him. If you think of it, our jobs are supposed to be the same as his job, ONLY in a different capacity.
It’s true that our Lord, while on Earth, associated with sinners. That was His primary reason for coming….to save sinners from their sins. Archbishop Sheen used the analogy of a man dispossessing himself of his human flesh and taking on the body of a dog in order to teach other dogs. This is exactly what Christ has done. He shed everything for us so that we might repent and live with Him for all eternity. That is the epitome of love.
May the love of Christ remain in your heart this Christmas and throughout the coming year.
Merry Christmas and good health to in 2009!
Michael
Merry Christmas Fr. Joe, Chizzle, Madalen, Janine, and everyone else here.
Good health in 2009 too!
Love Michael
Michael
Thanks Mikey – the very same right back to you and everyone here as well!
Janine
I have just briefly been reading some of the responses on this website, and I ran across a comment that slammed Traditionalists. The comment not only slammed Traditionalists but threw them in the same catagory as sedevacanists.
What exactly was the meaning of that?
First of all, Traditionalists ARE NOT sedevacanists….we just love the Tridentine Mass.
For the sake of those reading these posts who don’t know what a Sedevacanist is. It is a group of Traditionalists that dictates that Catholics are supposed to be obedient to the pope and yet they have been at odds with every pope since the second vatican council.
http://www.staycatholic.com/traditionalists.htm
Father Joe,
Could you please explain what you meant by your comment on “As the Church has always taught…”? I recently heard a priest say that the Church always uses that formula just before she changes her teaching. Surely that can’t be right. Please explain.
Thanks,
Mary O
All that I know and understand is that we have to live by the decisions that we make.
Our actions have a profound impact not only on ourselves but also on others. God didn’t put us on this Earth for us to carry on as if we were the only one’s here.
Regarding the vocation crisis and the lack of young men answering God’s call to the priesthood, I think that most people are deceived. The crisis isn’t with the priesthood. The crisis exists because lay people don’t go to church as they should. We do have enough priests to cover the amount of lay faithful in relation to those who participate as they should. Unfortunately, both numbers are dwindling as time moves on. In my parish there is only 29% of registered members who attend Mass every week. The other groundhogs only show up at Christmas and Easter see their shadows then quietly retreat into their burrows until the next major holiday. These are typically the same people who bash the church and who use scandals as an excuse not to attend. Isn’t that scandalous itself? It also isn’t fair to the pastor and to the rest of the contributing parish membership.
Have a happy New Year.
Michael/Michigander
The vocation crisis is due to the fact that the priesthood is not made to look like a satisfying, fulfilling lifestyle. We need better role models among priests to show young men that this is a wonderful and noble life’s work, a true vocation.
Sadly, as much as I know Fr. Joe and other conservatives may DISAGREE, many young men do not want to live out their lives without wife and family; yet many may indeed feel called to serve God.
Even if they don’t happen to “find the right one” to marry and are ordained as a Permanent Deacon, they are not allowed to marry afterwards! Why is the church so rigid even on this??? Sometimes it is hard to find the right person, sometimes it takes a lifetime into middle age, as Michael shared with us in earlier posts.
I am a regular practicing Catholic who attends Mass regularly, read the Bible, pray the Rosary, and involved in many ministries. My parish is HUGE. We need more priests! Our diocese has closed 14 churches recently. Pitiful it has to be this way…not enough clergy to sheperd God’s people.
The Bishop’s hands are tied and he is being criticized for closing churches–what else can he do?
Too many lay people are being elicited to administer Holy Communion to the sick and homebound and at Sunday Mass. They are “extraordinary” in my parish simply because they are truly needed and there are not enough priests to do so. Communion would take way too long in our church if not for these EMCs. (True, many should probably not even be going up in the first place because they do not go to confession anymore, the lines are long for Communion but short for confession, but that is for another thread!)
I love being Catholic, and Fr. Joe I truly respect the celibate priesthood and I thank you for your beautiful sacrifice and devotion. But after all that said, I still feel there would be more men entering the seminary if they were permitted to marry. Am I a heretic for thinking this way? If so, then over half those Catholics in the pews on Sunday are as well.
St. Augustine is a doctor of the church right? Then why this?
“The more ancient tradition (St. Augustine) taught they babies who died without baptism would be consigned to hell”.
How could this be? Hell is for souls who willfully disobey and ignore God.
How can an infant who hasn’t lived long enough to speak his or her first word be consigned to hell because they weren’t baptized? Isn’t it the fault of the parents?
Janet,
If young men aren’t willing to sacrifice in order to answer a high call from Heaven, then they aren’t worthy of that call. Their loss. Most priests that I know would never want to be married because they see what married people have to go through.
I had an admitted alcoholic priest tell me that he didn’t want to be a priest. Why did he become a priest then? Only God knows for sure.
God isn’t going to send to us an overabundance of pious individuals if our country continues to live in a perpetual state of immorality and in mortal sin either. He doesn’t work that way.
In 1967-68 there was an overwhelming response to the Roman Catholic priesthood to the point that the society of St. James was initiated. That was in 1967. Look at how things have changed in just forty short years.
People don’t even want to give God an hour a week of their time at Mass on Sunday. Something is very radically wrong.
It’s logical and safe to conclude that if there is a lack of reverence with the laity then there has to be a decline in religious vocations. How many young women do you know who are entering religious life now? I don’t know of any.
Fr. Joe, regarding your last reply about St. Augustine’s theory on children who die not baptized. It’s as if they came in to this world then were automatically condemned to hell because of original sin. Will God hold the parents responsible for the loss of their souls?
It’s like the scripture passage where Jesus tells the man to warn the other man about his sins. He said thathe would hold him accountable if the man died in his sins.
Amen to all of what you’ve written and particularly to your last sentence.
Father Joe said: “The more ancient tradition (St. Augustine) taught they babies who died without baptism would be consigned to hell. Salvation is given preference or the greater gravity; but we are reminded of the necessity of faith and baptism (no one is saved apart from Christ).”
Well, if that were true, then surely it must be morally dubious to get pregnant, even within marriage. Because even when you take abortion out of the equation, most conceptions don’t develop to term, due to failed implantation, miscarriage, or resorption. And who could take a chance on having their unbaptized embryo burn for eternity as a child in the fires of hell?
In fact, if Augustine were right about ensoulment as well as original sin, then it would be better to have an early abortion prior to ensoulment (which he held occurs some weeks after conception) than to continue the pregnancy. While terminating would be a sin for the woman, according to Augustine’s beliefs, this course of action might well also keep a baby’s soul out of the clutches of the devil.
No, any moral person who actually believes what St. Augustine said about babies in hell will never take the risk of having children.
But does ~anyone~ today still hold to the Augustinian teaching on this issue? And how do they justify reproducing in light of those beliefs?
I think you should investigate Father [NAME DELETED] on EWTN. He is not the wonderful, holy priest you think he is.
Barbara,
If not by the grace of God, there go I.
Pray for Fr. so & so if you know that he’s doing the wrong thing or having problems.
It could be your prayers that could cause him to convert, which could ultimately save him.
People tend to forget that before men are priests they are human beings capable of faults just like the rest of us.
Also, what is “not holy”? Did he speak in a rude way to someone? Did he not act “perfect”? I ask because Fr. G from EWTN will apoligize sometimes because he is rude or short, people act like he’s a machine. Being good all the time is hard.
Of course anything worse is a different story, but alluding to bad things is wrong without facts. It makes people wonder about things that might not exist.
Thank you for the wonderful words Father Joe!
Janine if you are still out there please get in touch with me @ jom5701@aol.com, thanks.
Father Joe,
This question is not about the recent postings, but can you give me an answer to pass on to a Jewish friend. I live in NY, although that should not matter.
An older couple, both previously married in the church to other people and divorced has decided they want to marry. A local priest said they both had to have annulments before they could be married in the catholic church. When they went to arrange for a black tie reception they mentioned it to the planner and was told that they have a priest that would marry them..They were told that if a priest is retired or does not belong to a particular parish he can marry them.????? I told my questioning Jewish friend that the local priest was correct. My friend commented that the Catholic church is a bunch of hyprochrites that change the rules to their liking…..How do I convince him otherwise….????
Thanks for your clear cut answer to my question…The Jewish person speaking to me about it was not part of the couple that are getting married. Thanks again
wow lots of posts here.
lots of moral dilemmas here, but overall what is best for our souls? wanting to be good or *having* to be good. Seems like the person who wants to get to the top of the mountain is always going to beat the person that was dragged up there unwillingly. How do we convince people they don’t want what they want and they want what they don’t want?
Plus I don’t get all the swearing… not as in bad words… but as in promises and bargains with God, exclamations of good deeds done, etc… isn’t God smarter than us? Doesn’t he know when our Yes means ‘Yes’ and our No means ‘No’. When people say things like so and so was really great, how do we know that so and so didn’t sleep around or molest children or commit murderous acts in thought or action? Can a person just say ‘I did it, it was bad, I didn’t enjoy it. I thought I would, but I was wrong. I forgive and pity anyone who acts or has acted as foolish and misinformed as I have.’ and be done with it?
Isn’t there a difference between being told something is undesirable and *knowing* that something is undesirable?
Wondering if I should stick my hands in pretty, sparkly flames?,
Snotly
Fr. Joe,
I have a comment that maybe some of the other bloggers are not aware of. There have been recent studies done at both Protestant and Catholic seminaries–it is the Catholic seminaries that are showing increase not the Protestant seminaries.
So much for those who think that if priests were able to marry the seminaries would be full.
I think the real issue is not a crisis of the priesthood, but rather a crisis of the family. Healthy families promote vocations.
Seems to me that it is the culture that needs to conform to the teachings of Jesus given through the Church, not the other way around.
Thanks Father Joe, for showing what true love really is….laying down your life for your flock. Sad that alot in society have confused lust with love, and have not come to know the greatest lover of all, Jesus.
Huh?
With regards to Father Mary’s decision: I was a Religious Brother in vows for 7 years. I had entered the Seminary when I was fifteen. I never addressed the question of whether I should be married until a year after I made my Final vows.
As I closed the door to my room one evening, it sounded like a jail cell being closed and this thought came to my mind: can I really accept my Community of Priests and Brothers as my family. It was only at that time that I realized that I wanted to marry and have a family. I wanted to raise children more than just teach them.
I knew a young lady who used to lead our folk masses. I liked her but I told the Lord that I am not leaving to necessarily marry her. (I was going to California and she was in Rhode Island) but I wanted to leave the state of Religious Life for the eventual Married State. That was 37 years ago of marriage, two children and three grandaughters.
My advice to Fr. Mary, if he gets to read this: pray for discernment of your vocation. There are many nice, loving women out there but [do not] choose a woman over Christ; choose your [married] vocation with Christ and He will direct your footsteps.
If you are just choosing because you have fallen in love with a particular woman, it very well could be Satan guiding you. Remember when Christ went into the desert to pray, the Devil tried to take Him away from His heavenly Father. What the Lord did then was to pray and fast in order to stay strong as God’s son.
My prayers go with you Father Mary that you will seek God’s wisdom and I pray that whichever profession that you go, it will be God’s will that you follow.
I also agree that for the sake of the Church and EWTN this should not have been announced publicly.
In Christ,
Charles
Newbury Park, CA
It is not my general policy to delete comments or even to largely edit them. But one person in particular has so harassed me that I am considering giving up the Blog entirely. I have urged that we pray for the priests who misbehaved and for their accomplices. But some refuse to admit there was wrong. Others resent that I would try to make a corrective about priestly behavior, even though silence to public scandal seems to imply that it is no big deal.
Anyway, I have deleted recent spamming and threatening comments. It was the last bit that hurt most. Maybe it is easier to attack me than for some to admit their own complicity and guilt in sin? I try to be a good priest. I am celibate and that purity has not been assailed. I try to be obedient, to both Christ and to his chief shepherds.
Some are not content to allow me to operate the Blog in the way I see fit. While I have the last word, I have favored free discussion. But I suppose some people feel that they, their pet issues and/or their fallen heroes are exempt from discussion.
I will not water-down or dismiss the sinfulness of priests who betray their ministry. Such is never the “active” will of God. God is not the source for evil. God permits evil acts to protect human freedom.
I have never published the name of the accomplices to errant priests. As far as I knew, everything reported here was already in the public domain. I doubt there were any unique revelations.
I do come down hard on priests who break their promises. I consider it very serious. The young men coming along should be well prepared to keep their word and their self-respect.
I am in the process of revamping some of the comments here as posted articles in their own right. Many good things were said but were lost in the long and sometimes non-topical list. These deletions or moves are merely to make the blog more coherent. Other comments were removed because content was questioned and I have little fight left for the small stuff.
Given my own pressing health concerns, I do not need the stress that this Blog is causing me. Apologies go out to most of you. It may be the comments I deleted (before posted on this Blog) were not meant to be mean-spirited, maybe they emerged from pain? But I found them intrusive and threatening.
I never meant to hurt anyone, but I never intended to violate freedom and truth either. Not feeling well, I will call it a night.