The Associated Press (Nov. 13, 2008) has an interesting report about a priest, Father Jay S. Newman, at St. Mary’s Church in Greenville, South Carolina who told his parishioners in a distributed bulletin that they they should NOT receive Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama, given his support for abortion; that is until they have done penance for their sin. He argued that voting for Obama “constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.”
The priest wrote:
“Our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president.”
“Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exits constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ’s Church and under the judgment of divine law. Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.”
TO READ THE STORY FOLLOW THIS LINK:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705755/
THE PRIEST’S BLOG:
http://web.mac.com/jayscottnewman/Site/A_Parish_Priest.html
PARISH WEB PAGE:
Wait a sec… McCain was in favor of funding embryonic stem-cell research, and he wasn’t in favor of banning abortion. Will McCain voters also need to confess, given that a vote for McCain “constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil” on exactly the grounds that Father Newman argues a vote for Obama does?
I wonder how much heat his message brought Father Newman this week? It really delights me: he is telling Catholics that it is a sin to be a Democrat and to vote for the candidate of their choice! This guy makes Father Joe look pretty tame by comparison. He may do more to empty the churches than I ever accomplished!
Imagine the scenes taking place… little old ladies on their knees with rosaries between their fingers, coming up one by one to him and saying… “Bless me Father, for I have sinned. I was five minutes late for Mass last week. I sometimes get upset with my children. I looked at my soaps and there were a few suggestive scenes. And oh yes, I voted for the black guy, Obama. Please forgive me, Father, I will try not to let it happen again.” Or young black men and teenagers who have voted for the first time… “Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. I voted for Senator Obama. I knew he was pro-choice, but he said he opposed abortion. I did not understand. It is just he made me proud to be a black man in America. Now I feel so ashamed. But I am also confused. If it was a sin to vote for Obama, then was it wrong for the Pope to congratulate him on his victory?”
Oh the twisted logic! THE BIG DEE
Here is Father Newman’s controversial bulletin message:
Meanwhile, the American Humanist Association has initiated it’s Godless Holiday Campaigne with ads in the Wash. Post and the N.Y. Times and with ads on Metro buses in D.C.
The theme: Why believe in a God, just be good for goodness sake.
HE’S RIGHT. IT WOULD BE SACRILEGE.
Real Catholics are supposed to OPPOSE abortion.
I believe what needs to be looked at is that Americans who claim the name of Christian (Catholic and Protestant) did not have a fundamental problem with Obama. He is not just pro-choice…he is proabortion. He has supported letting living aborted babies die, he has supported partial birth abortions, and all forms of abortion. I believe that many people voted for him for “change”, not even comprehended the issues. I am saddened for America. Perhaps we need to dumb down the issues at debates so everyone can understand. As a Catholic, I am also very upset by the moniker “messiah” being applied to Mr. Obama. If he is 1/2 the Christian he professes, why doesn’t this bother him?
Father Joe,
Months before the election, I read an Ohio Bishop’s explanation that such a vote was permissible. I voted for McCain simply because he was the lesser of the two evils–and for no other reason. Months before the election, I read an Ohio Bishop’s explanation that such a vote was permissible.
I wasn’t aware of any ‘plausible’ third choice, since I knew clearly that either Obama or McCain would in fact win the election.
If this was incorrect logic on my part I’d like to know.
“Wait a sec” Should an atheist be commenting on any issue regarding sin whatsoever, considering that denying the very existence of God might be considered the ultimate sin???
Rufus,
Madalen is she’s the most Catholic atheist that I know.
So Father Joe,
How do you reconcile this view with the view of other well known priests such as Father Andrew Greeley, who not only supported Obama but gave thousands to his campaign? See
http://www.agreeley.com/articles/110508.htm for Greele’s article on “Why so many pro-life Catholics Supported Obama.”
It’s just such nonsense as Father Newman is spouting that keeps many of us becoming Catholic. Those born Catholic just ignore it. But we’d have to lie first just to get a foot in the door.
The Catholic Church has many branches, and members of one branch don’t treat members of other branches very nicely, priests included. When Gandhi said he’d become a Christian, if it weren’t for the Christians,” he had a point. The Catholic Church has much to offer, but telling people who they should vote for, isn’t it. Believe me, it isn’t a Catholic selling point. I say this only because I think you actually care.
Lynn,
There is only one Lord and His name is Jesus.
People have unrealistic expectations. When the new President elect assumes office in January, he will have to rely very heavily upon advice from people that he thinks are “experts” because of his lack of experience at almost every level. Hold on folks….. I think that we’re all in for another wild ride for the next four years.
What this does for me is to push me even closer to the Lord Jesus Christ and our Lady.
Most people voted for Senator Obama because their bank account and their stock balances are dropping and they’re worried sick.
Not a great motivation to vote for someone.
We’re responsible for the way that we’ve voted.
Fr. Pavone summed it up very clearly with his election night video.
Any priest who supports a pro-abortion candidate such as Hussein Obama should be ex-communicated. He has no business being a priest. I call such a person a coward. You cannot cannot cannot be pro-abortion and a Catholic! How many times does this have to be said for you to get it?! I think anyone who argues and says the church shouldn’t tell people who to vote for should butt out of the Catholic Church. If you don’t like what the Church stands for (which is the Truth) then get the hell out!
And for that woman who said that this is one of the reasons she doesn’t become a Catholic will thank goodness. We don’t need people like you. Good riddance! and Goodbye!
WWJD?
Helenl — Why shouldn’t a Church speak out against actions that it views as evil? What good is a Church that doesn’t speak out? It is not nonsense to point out that abortion does indeed end a life of a person no matter how society has tried to “pretty up” the reality of it by code words. I want a Church that speaks out against injustice – even if it is “crucified” by the press.
Just out of curiosity, do you think that the Catholic church should have spoken out more, or less, during the holocaust?
Father Newman is not out of line and I support him wholeheartedly. Finally, a church shepherd has spoken up and told his flock that if they approved and voted for abortions, then they should seek forgiveness before they accept Holy Communion. He is right. I applaud him.
It is sad how many of your twist his words and actions. He doesn’t say that being a Democrat is a sin — or any of the things you are judging him on.
It may interest you that Jesus, Our Great Shepherd, was thought of as a ‘radical’ in His time, and I can hardly envision Jesus Christ nodding approval over killing unborn babies. Jesus said to love others as you love yourself. Would you abort yourself?
There is nothing radical about Father Newman. He is following the church’s stance on pro-life and he would be a hyprocrite if he said anything different. We are responsible for the way we vote – that’s all he said. And if you voted for someone who clearly is not a Christian if they support abortions, then you need to mend your actions to God yourself – aren’t you glad your mother didn’t abort you?
Rufus, I was pointing out a contradiction in Father Newman’s reasoning. If the human embryo has an absolute value as a living person, then assenting to ANY compromise that allows the destruction of embryos is “material cooperation with intrinsic evil”. If voting for Obama constitutes such “material cooperation with intrinsic evil”, then so does voting for McCain.
So why don’t McCain voters have to confess to cooperating with evil?
Remember, we’re supposedly dealing with absolutes here. Assenting to the murder of one person is not “less wrong” than assenting to the murders of six people. Father Newman seems to be saying that the value of the embryo is absolute when it comes to making it sin to vote for Obama — but ~relative~ when it comes to permitting a vote for McCain. And that’s contradictory.
Michael said: “Rufus,
Madalen is she’s the most Catholic atheist that I know.”
And Father Joe said: “Interesting that you say that, when it comes to the anonymous comments, I often suspect that things may not be entirely as they first appear. Hum?”
Well, I’m exactly what I appear to be.
I just think it’s good to talk to people who are different.
Helen:
Father Newman has now written a letter of “clarification”. In other words, he is trying to put a “spin” on his original imprudence. BIG MISTAKE – never give the media a second bite at you.
The title of this thread is ” A priest says No communion for Obama voters”. Father Newman, in his most recent bulletin to his congregation, says he never said that nor did he intend to say it. He adds that church law prohibits him for witholding Communion to any of his congregants regardless of for whom they voted.
Father Newman then restates the teaching of Benedict XVI, as Cardinal, some years ago when he addressed the issue of politics and abortion. Benedict said at that time that a Catholic who voted for a pro-abortion candidate BECAUSE that candidate supported abortion which reflected the voter’s preference, then the voter had placed himself outside the teachings of the Church and was cooperating with an evil. However, one could vote for a pro-choice candidate IN SPITE of his pro-choice position for other reasons when there was no palusible alternative. In this election there were approximately ten candidates running for President. However, there were only two plausible candidates: Obama and McCain because one of the two was going to win. McCain has historically been no friend to pro-life issues. He has consistently voted for stem cell research and he is not opposed to abortion: he simply believes that abortion should be a States Rights issue. In other words States should decide if they are going to have abortions. Presently, 30 states have permissive abortion laws. So, Catholic or not, one could reasonably discern that there was no plausible alternative to either Obama or McCain.
When Father Newman said that a Catholic could not vote for
Obama, he was clearly pointing to McCain as a plausible moral alternative. He was, in effect, saying that the salvation of his congragents ran through the Republican Party. That is engaging in partican politics.
Father Newman says he has received over 3500 e-mails from around the world regarding his initial bulletin comment. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of them was not from his Bishop telling him to clarify his views and stop compromising the tax-exemp status of the South Carolina Diocese. Bishops are spiritual leaders but they are also temporal leaders and can be quite practical about things like that.
Regarding Father Greeley: He is a well educated and for many years been a well respected sociologist. Some years ago he decided that he wanted to write novels instead of practicing sociology. His books are not well written. He was a much better sociologist than he is a novelist. So if he says anything sociological, listen to him, but for heaven’s sake don’t buy his books.
Madalen,
You’re not different than the rest of us and we accept you just the are.
You need more sweet talk, you say? Sure!
:) Group hug for Father Joe!
:) (((((FatherJoe)))))
:) We value you as a wonderful and unique individual.
:) Thank you for sharing!
:) Thank you for being YOU!!!
:)
I had a cavity writing that.
We need to be nice even if we don’t agree.
We don’t want to see anyone get upset.
On another note, why is the church so worried about losing Tax Exemption status?
That could change at any moment.
Aren’t we letting the GOVERNMENT control us?
Isn’t the church a theocracy?
Jesus could care less about what people think.
He is still God and souls are still falling into hell like snowflakes.
What would Jesus say about this?
I’ll tell you what He would say.
He would call a spade a spade and tell the truth. Why is it so hard for us Catholics to do that?
Fr. Newman has more stones than so many other priests AND BISHOPS who are afraid to speak out in the face of wrongdoing.
In my humble opinion, the Catholic church should have came out prior to the election and told her children NOT TO VOTE FOR OBAMA because he’s Pro-Choice. We compomise fear for morality.
Then I read these words from a priest on election night:
“I am saddened that my retreat staffers voted in favor of the Pro-Choice candidate.”
Duh………….
Imagine if another Back to the Future movie came out now.
The past would be set in the 80’s and the future now. Here are some event’s that the 80’s people would have to see:
America in the 21st century
The Phillies winning the World Series again
The first ever African American President
Christmas and Halloween decorations on the same shelf
Santa in the mall BEFORE Thanksgiving
A “man” giving birth to a child
The government spending Billons to save Wallstreet
September 11th and terrorism
School shootings, violence, and metal detectors
Government stimulus checks
Gasoline and Milk above $4.00 a gallon
a dozen of eggs at more than $2.00
Food prices through the roof
record book unemployment
the surge of illegal immigrants
Ultimate fighting
Reality TV
HD TV and channels that go past 100
Ipods
Text messaging
Cell phones
Cell phones that take pictures
The Internet
Smart cars
GPS’s
When I see all of this I can’t help but think that we were a lot better off in the 80’s with Ronald Reagan and without some of the items listed above.
The interest rate on CD’s averaged about 17% back then. Remember that?
Those days are LOOOONG gone.
Fr. Joe,
Do you agree with Fr. Newman and do you also think that many of your brother priests agree with what he said as well?
I’m not a priest, but I would have to side with Fr. Newman on this one. He told the truth.
Give me a break, Michael. This ‘Lady Godless’ lives in her head, as most atheists do. As Christians, yes, we have to love them, but her comments (or his, who knows), for the most part, are to the left.
Frankly, I’m sick of hearing from the left. I just can’t help myself. My eyes glaze over when I try to read her comments. The left, to me, are beginning to sound like clones.
Father Newman was right to say what he said about cooperation with evil. I just wish that it had been said more loudly and more often by many more of our clergy. We have become far too mealy-mouthed about good and evil in this country. Too much tolerance of that which should not be tolerated; too much niceness is a disease that will rot our souls.
It was very hard to cast a vote this year– we had two really unattractive candidates to choose between. However, I must say, respectfully, that I disagree with Lady Godless. Where abortion is concerned, McCain was by far the better choice. Some babies would have been spared by him that will surely be killed, thanks to Obama.
McCain simply is not and never has been, so far as I know, an absolutist in favor of abortion, without any sort of restriction. Moreover, since we cannot bring about the kingdom of God on earth by legislation, turning the abortion issue over to the states is actually a good idea. State government is much closer to us and, thus, more responsive. Even if abortion prevails in the short run, it is always possible to overturn the law later, if we can persuade our neighbors that we have the better position.
I have been reading that many Republicans did not vote this year. I am sorry for it but I can’t find it in my heart to blame them. I would have been one of them but for the fact that, when push came to shove, I simply could not fail to protest the evil that Obama seeks to enshrine in law.
I understand Fr. Joe that you guys have rules to follow.
Fr. Newman was basically saying that if a person has a mortal sin on their soul, then they should refrain from receiving Holy communion until they’ve been to confession.
He’s right.
His assertion that Catholics who voted for the Pro-Choice candidate are in sin is also correct.
Up to now, I haven’t heard anyone mention any of this. I don’t think that Fr. Newman is trying to gain popularity or set precedence. I just think that he’s being honest.
Catholics need to be more reflective, especially at election time. God made the law very clear
regarding abortion in the fifth commandmant “though shall not kill.”
Why do we make things so complicated?
The rules are black and white….no gray areas there.
Rufus,
I hear you. I have to say that what scares me is the posibilty of hell every day. Read this post on hell. It was a great grace when I read it. People don’t want to talk about hell and they certainly never give it a thought, but hell is real and hell is forever. I don’t want to see you or any one else end up there.
Hang on to Jesus with all your strength.
Sister Faustina’s Vision of Hell
“I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence…the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell.” (Diary 741)
The Apostle of Divine Mercy
St. Maria Faustina Kowalska
of the
Congregation of the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy
“Today, I was led by an angel to the Chasms of Hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw:
The First Torture that constitutes hell is:
The loss of God.
The Second is:
Perpetual remorse of conscience.
The Third is
That one’s condition will never change.
The Fourth is:
The fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it. A terrible suffering since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger.
The Fifth Torture is:
Continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own.
The Sixth Torture is:
The constant company of Satan.
The Seventh Torture is:
Horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies.
These are the Tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings.
Indescribable Sufferings
There are special Tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings related to the manner in which it has sinned.
I would have died
There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me.
No One Can Say There is No Hell
Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like…how terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O My Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend you by the least sin.” (Diary 741)
Rufus,
I’m trying to stay in good with Madalen.
She may make it to heaven before me and I need all the references I can get.
It is as I predicted, Father Newman has had his knuckles slapped and he will pay a price for his brazen partisan take on the election, abortion and politics.
Muhahaha!
THE BIG DEE
Father Newman has gone silent. A link on his parish page takes you to this message:
http://docnotes.catholic-doc.org/statement/Statement%20on%20Voting%20and%20Communion.pdf
Statement of Monsignor Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston
CHARLESTON, S.C. (November 14, 2008) – This past week, the Catholic Church’s clear, moral teaching on the evil of abortion has been pulled into the partisan political arena. The recent comments of Father Jay Scott Newman, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville, S.C., have diverted the focus from the Church’s clear position against abortion. As Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings. Any comments or statements to the contrary are repudiated.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions.” The Catechism goes on to state: “In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path; we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.”
Christ gives us freedom to explore our own conscience and to make our own decisions while adhering to the law of God and the teachings of the faith. Therefore, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.
The pulpit is reserved for the Word of God.Sometimes God’s truth, as is the Church’s teaching on abortion, is unpopular. All Catholics must be aware of and follow the teachings of the Church.
We should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials with a view to influencing policy in favor of the protection of the unborn child. Let us pray for them and ask God to guide them as they take the mantle of leadership on January 20, 2009.
I ask also for your continued prayers for me and for the Diocese of Charleston.
Office of the Administrator
119 Broad Street · Charleston, South Carolina 29401
Post Office Box 818 · Charleston, South Carolina 29402 · Phone (843) 958-2150 · Fax (843) 958-2152
It is an interesting response. It reminds me of a book I am currently reading, CAN A CATHOLIC SUPPORT HIM? (Asking the Big Question About Barack Obama) by Douglas W. Kmiec with an introduction from Martin Sheen.
Peace,
Father Joe
My dear devil,
Seeing your several posts on this blog got me wondering just how the devil you would have gotten your hands on a computer – and then I realized “Oh, of course, you were behind the invention of the computer!”
Oh, poor Father Joe has rules to follow. A lot of people will follow such rules and find themselves part of my procession into the flames!
I love a good fight, do you suppose this one is ending already? Here let me light a match!
Let me help you poor pro-life Khristians. Yes, I the devil will be your champion and give you some help. Or is it really help? I am very smart. I know the truth. But remember, I am a liar at heart! Anyway, here is some ammo for your arguments…
Msgr. Laughlin is certainly towing the line. It is much easier to discipline hardliner clergy than it is the jokers in the pews. Make the congregation upset and they might keep their wallets and purses closed. Next they will threaten the Church’s tax-exemption and the irate politicians will withhold their favors and honors to churchmen. Government has no spin-doctors to compare with the Catholic Church. This letter from Msgr. Laughlin is the quintessential spin, worthy of a bishop in the USCCB. I love the pencil pushers, the diplomatic Chancery staff, and the ambitious men who see their rise measured in how well they do damage control. I am not saying this is the case with the Administrator for Charleston; no only that his letter says more between the lines than in the actual words we read.
There appears to be some resentment in this line that “the Catholic Church’s clear, moral teaching on the evil of abortion HAS BEEN PULLED into the partisan arena”. Was this Father Newman’s fault? Given that Senator Obama has a 100% approval rating from both Planned Parenthood and NARAL, should this happenstance not have been automatic? Some bishops, like the guys in Texas, were very clear about the matter.
Msgr. states that Father Newman “diverted the focus from the Church’s clear position against abortion.” Is this really true? One might contend that his letter moves the attention away from the objective severity of abortion to the subjective conscience of the believer. Father Newman presents the case fairly clearly as to what happened on election day and the war against the Gospel of Life: “And the chief battleground in this culture war for the past 30 years has been abortion, which one side regards as a murderous abomination that cries out to Heaven for vengeance and the other side regards as a fundamental human right that must be protected in laws enforced by the authority of the state. Between these two visions of the use of lethal violence against the unborn there can be no negotiation or conciliation, and now our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president.” Would Msgr Laughlin dispute these facts?
The good Monsignor burns Father Newman with these two sentences: “As Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings. Any comments or statements to the contrary are repudiated.” It would be helpful if he would clarify what exactly Father said that falls under this rebuke. My suspicion is that he targets this line: “Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Khrist’s Church and under the judgment of divine law.”
Bishops Kevin Farrell of Dallas and Kevin Vann of Fort Worth stated in virtually the same words the following: “To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or ‘abortion rights’ when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil – and, therefore, morally impermissible.” What Father Newman says in addition seems the logical corollary. If one cooperates in evil and does something grievously “impermissible” is that not mortal sin? If not, then I have to empy quite a few souls from my hot hot vacation home!
He writes: “Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to G-d in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.” Does not mortal sin blacken or kill the soul, placing one firmly under the judgment of G-d and unworthy for communion? Is not the reception of Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin regarded as sacrilegious? I think Msgr. Laughlin should read carefully the letter from the two Texas bishops! Then, maybe he should apologize to Father Newman?
Msgr. Laughlin quotes the nasty Catechism of the Catholic Church, “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions.” The Catechism goes on to state: “In the formation of conscience the Word of G-d is the light for our path; we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lawd’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spurit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.” I suspect that our good Father Newman appreciates this teaching already himself; however, he was probably surprised that any churchmen would think that it was fully topical to this discussion. Sure there may be some people who are too stupid to go to hell. They live in the peculiar world of invincible ignorance. Such people who voted for Obama would not be guilty of mortal sin. Such feeble-minded and impressionable individuals are easily influenced by celebrity endorsements and inspirational (even if hollow) rhetoric. But, I am sure that Father Newman did not have these people in mind when he wrote his bulletin message. How then could these passages possibly apply?
Notice how Msgr. Laughlin shifted the discussion away from the objective matter of mortal sin to the more subjective conscience and its freedom. What he fails to appreciate, or maybe it is deliberately so, is that a so-called informed conscience where the right to life is given the priority it deserves, would have a hard time voting for Obama without terrible spasms of guilt. Khrist gives of freedom, but not license. Knowing that Obama is dedicated to perpetuating the agenda of Planned Parenthood and abortions, and that McCain would at least offer some restrictions with a 75% approval rating from the National Right to Life; how could one vote for Obama and still adhere to divine law and the teachings of faith? Msgr. Laughlin never says how one might do this and, in truth, he probably regards abortion as important but still as only one issue upon many. Our Msgr. never comes out and says as much. If he did, he would be the one on the hot seat now. Nevertheless, he may still have said enough that will backfire upon him in the long run. Many in the Church believe that the teaching of a free conscience has been taken too far by certain authorities. Msgr. Laughlin’s contention is straightforward: “Therefore, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.” Hopefully, people will have the integrity and respect for Church teaching to abstain themselves from Holy Communion if they have knowingly and willfully sided with the pro-abortionists and their political enablers. Unless Father Newman has the mystical power to read souls, he would not know who voted for Obama anyway. The notion of him withholding communion is Msgr. Laughlin’s charge, not something Father Newman espoused. Anything the good priest discovered in the sacrament of Confession would be under the seal and he would be forbidden to work upon it. If people are coming up to receive Holy Communion while wearing Obama hats, shirts and pins, then the congregation should be chastened for a lack of public decorum and respect to the sacred space and service. Partisan politics should not enter into the House of G-d. Conscience is fine, freedom is okay too; however, one can only develop an informed conscience if a person both learns and follows Church teachings. WE ARE NOT FREE TO FOLLOW AN ERRONEOUS OR UNINFORMED CONSCIENCE! It is plain that this Father Newman preaches the hard truth consistently. He informed his people but they misused their freedom in voting for a man who promises to perpetuate and expand internationally the murder of children.
I am not sure what the closing sections of the letter were supposed to prove. Msgr. Laughlin says “The pulpit is reserved for the Word of G-d.” Father’s message was written in the bulletin, not delivered from the pulpit. This intimates that there has been some discussion of his homilies and possible suppression. Msgr. Laughlin also says that “We should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials.” This was already granted in Father Newman’s message. I suppose they see it as making the best of a bad situation? He asks for prayers for himself and the diocese, but strangely not for Father Newman. Ah, to have been a fly on the wall during their discussion!
I would also direct Msgr. Laughlin’s attention to a memo from Cardinal Ratzinger, now the Pope, which became part of the controversy about giving Holy Communion to pro-abortion politicians. Given the passivity of most bishops, but not all, in regard to withholding communion from pro-abortion Catholic politicians, it is no wonder that those who are even more remotely responsible in their cooperation with this evil (the voters) should be excused the blood on their hands.
Fr. Newman is a hero
Goodness, the devil is sounding awful Catholic, indeed some of the things he said remind me of the book, RENDER UNTO CAESAR by Archbishop Charles J. Chaput. Yes, I am reading that alongside Kmiec’s book!
Devil, you’re begging the question. You cite the statement of the two bishops in Texas (“To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or ‘abortion rights’ when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil – and, therefore, morally impermissible.”), but neither they nor you make a convincing argument that John McCain was in fact a “morally acceptable alternative” by the standard they applied to President-elect Obama.
Remember: we’re supposedly dealing with an absolute moral principle, and an absolute moral principle admits no compromise. But McCain WAS willing to permit the continuation of abortion, and was in favor of federal funding of research using stem cells obtained through the destruction of human embryos. It is quite conspicuous that these bishops and Father Newman have applied their allegedly absolute moral principle selectively — and frank partisanship springs to mind as the likely explanation.
So of course Father Newman ended up getting a “correction”, as the priest who writes this blog likes to call such.
Rufus said: “Give me a break, Michael. This ‘Lady Godless’ lives in her head, as most atheists do. As Christians, yes, we have to love them, but her comments (or his, who knows), for the most part, are to the left.”
Yes, I’m female. And there’s a good reason why my comments sound like they come from the left.
It’s because I’m a left-winger.
And by the way, I hereby release you from any obligation to love me. You can’t anyway, since you don’t exactly know me.
Rufus continued: “Frankly, I’m sick of hearing from the left. I just can’t help myself. My eyes glaze over when I try to read her comments. The left, to me, are beginning to sound like clones.”
That’s okay, Rufus. Just skip my posts, if you like.
I never said Khristians were consistent. They say on one hand “No abortions! No exceptions!” And then they settle for McCain with his 75% pro-life rating! They settle for less all the time and the pro-choicers are well aware of their tactics:
parental notification
informed consent that includes graphic depictions of abortions and sonograms
waiting periods
rosaries and cameras by protesters blocking abortion clinics
claims (mostly false) about abortion being linked to cancer
abortion is a legislative, not a judicial question
return the issue of abortion to the states (works both ways)
I only supplied some fodder for the Khristians because I want their internal dissension to continue. It delights me that they should fight among themselves. As long as that continues, they will be too divided and preoccupied to make any real difference.
For badness sake, remember, I am THE DEVIL. I hate you, yes Lady G-dless, do not worry about me loving you… although I know you better than you might think. Of course, you think I am a cartoon, a prop from an “R” rated movie and nothing more. That is fine by me as well. That gives me greater liberty to spread my poison.
I am THE DEVIL and as such I AM PRO-ABORTION! I eat babies! And I eat those who given them to me!
THE BIG DEE
I wish priests and ministers would bar all the racists from church…all over the country people (most who would say they were pro-life) are doing awful things in protest of Obama. School children in Idaho, chanting on the school bus (2nd and third grade) “assasinate Obama” Where did they hear that? In Maine, there is a gun store having a “pool” for a 1.00, betting on the date he will get killed. A prosfessor in Alabama had a poster defaced and threats against her life. A white family in Georgia had human feces put all over her Obama signs…..it goes on and on, but all these people probably file into church on Sunday or say they are “God fearing” types. The burning of cross’s, also prevelant in certain areas, I’m sure makes Jesus sad….abortion is wrong, but this is awful too. You can’t be so filled with hate and be a Christian or a pro-lifer in any way.
St. Michael the Archangel
defend us in battle
be our protection against the wickedness
and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him we humbly pray
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly
hosts, by the power of God,
cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who wander through the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen
[...] Fr. Joe Jenkins’ Post and Commentary [...]
The Devil might be right about this one: “One might contend that his letter [from the diocese] moves the attention away from the objective severity of abortion to the subjective conscience of the believer.” Many dissenters these day seem to offer the same rationale that their freedom of conscience takes precedence over God’s law.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/nov/08111408.html
Bishop Emeritus Rene Henry Gracida of Corpus Christi, TX, told LifeSiteNews.com (LSN) his reaction to Fr. Newman’s letter “is one of admiration and awe. I find nothing in what he has written that is at variance with the Magisterium of the Church. He is to be congratulated.”
Bishop Vasa of Baker, OR told LSN that, while Fr. Newman was correct to say that voting for Obama constitutes a material offense against moral teaching, it would nonetheless be impossible to “to ascertain with any degree of certainty the sinfulness of the action of any particular voter” as many voters may or may not have been aware of Obama’s extreme stance on abortion.
Devil:
You have several questionable statements in your post. You refer to the NASTY Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is a document of instruction that issues from the teaching authority of the Church. How can that be a NASTY document?
You imply that the Bishops of the U.S. Conference are a bunch of “SPIN” doctors and you reference Msgr. Laughlin as perhaps one of those Chancery “pencil pushers”. I am fairly certain that an Administrator of a Diocese is not going to issue the kind of statement that the Msgr. did unless he knew it represented the views of his Bishop. Chanceries just don’t operate any other way. Why? Because they know that the Bishop is the ORDINARY: which means that the Bishop is the ONLY official teacher of Catholic teachings in that Diocese. All other clergy teach through “faculties” granted by the Bishop. If a Bishop removes “faculties” from any clergy member, that priest is essentially out of business in that Diocese. So, you can believe that whatever is going on in the Diocese of Charleston, the Bishop is directing it.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a brilliant document, useful for any Khristian to know and to follow the truth. Why do I call it nasty? Well, I am the Devil, and this document has done much to bring enlightenment where before their was confusion and ignorance.
My dear poor Max, you really should check your facts before debating the Devil. But you know a little, so I will speak truthfully to you and reserve my lies for fools.
You write: “So, you can believe that whatever is going on in the Diocese of Charleston, the Bishop is directing it.”
While it is true that priests receive their faculties from the local ordinary or bishop; the Diocese of Charleston currently DOES NOT HAVE A BISHOP. It is being operated by Msgr. Laughlin. The previous bishop has gone on to bigger and better things.
If you look at the diocesan webpage you will read this: “Msgr. Martin T. Laughlin has been elected as the administrator of the Diocese of Charleston. With the installation of the Most Rev. Robert J. Baker as Bishop of Birmingham, Ala., the Diocese of Charleston became vacant.”
So, the cat has gone to be the bishop over Mother Angelica’s EWTN kingdom and right now we have a mouse at play in South Carolina!
Oh, Devil:
You disappoint me. Surely with your vast knowledge you know better.
“The Diocese of Charleston has no Bishop”. Technically you are correct but for all practical purposes you’re just blowing smoke.
I’m sure you know that the Diocese of Charleston is under the administrative supervision of the Metropolitan See of Atlanta. Atlanta is an Archdiocese and the Archbishop is Wilton Gregory. Whenever a vacancy occurs because of death or resignation in a Metropolitan Diocese it is the duty of the Metropolitan Archbishop to appoint a diocesan administrator. Msgr. Laughlin was appointed by the Metropolitan Archbishop who exercises full episcopal responsibility over the Diocese of Charleston until a new Bishop is appointed. In the absence of a Diocesan Bishop you can rest assured that Msgr. Laughlin conferred with his Metropolitan before he issued his statement.
Folks,
The best way to deal with the devil is to ignore him.
Ever since St. Michael threw his evil rear end out of heaven, he’s has a chip on his shoulder and wants to drag down thousands of others along with him.
In the future, don’t respond to anything that he writes. he’s not worth it.
he has a short rope and already knows where he’s going to end up.
Agreed, Michael (and your comment was pretty funny too, as I’m sure you know), but he’d like to take our living children with him as well. And he’s clever:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/14/town-divided-over-pledge-allegiance/
Unfortunately, Lady Godless, I’m obligated to love you, but you can bet that I will, indeed, skip right over your posts in the future.
In addition, I was equally unimpressed by your need to draw attention to yourself by re-posting my original post in your comment, as if to mock my comment. How utterly leftist of you.
Colbert,
He’s not that bright.
One wonder’s how God’s highest angel
Lucifer (light bearer) could have acted so foolishly and so stupidly.
He abused his gift of free will and lost it all.
He refused to serve the God-Man.
Now, he still has to obey God, the Blessed Mother, and even some humans that are placed above him by God.
Misery loves company.
Labels, labels….labels….. Can’t we all just get along? I bet Jesus would be called all sorts of names by persons on both sides – the right & the left – if he were to manifest Himself in these days.
Rufus said: “In addition, I was equally unimpressed by your need to draw attention to yourself by re-posting my original post in your comment, as if to mock my comment. How utterly leftist of you.”
No. Clarity, not mockery, is the purpose of quoting the text that one is responding to. It’s not a leftist thing. I just find it cuts down on the misunderstandings.
Am I the only one reading comments by “The Devil” as satire or spoof?
My poor dear Max,
Msgr. Laughlin was not appointed administrator by the Metropolitan. Rather, he was elected by the diocesan college of consultors (trusted insider priests). This election is later confirmed and his authority remains in effect as long as the bishop’s office is vacant.
I do not know why some of you have turned against me. Even Father Joe deleted a few of my posts. I thought I gave Lady G-dless a wonderful analogy for understanding hell.
It is true that the Devil is a liar, but sometimes he may speak the truth. Do you not have the same trouble from your pulpits? Even in this controvery around Father Newman, is there not a clash of ideas and polarity?
Daiane, thank you for piercing the truth about satire or spoof and any character who calls himself the Devil, or even Lady G-dless. Would it surprise you that there are some well known Catholics, even bishops and priests, who make anonymous posts so as to say what needs saying– but without making the headline news? Father Joe might have a heart attack if he knew whose posts he deleted. But that is all I will say. The mystery must remain.
It is enough to be a small fly in the ointment. Why label myself the Devil? It comes from one of my favorite expressions: “The devil you say!”
THE BIG DEE
The Devil said, “Daiane, thank you for piercing the truth about satire or spoof and any character who calls himself the Devil, or even Lady G-dless. Would it surprise you that there are some well known Catholics, even bishops and priests, who make anonymous posts so as to say what needs saying– but without making the headline news?”
Let me get this straight. A Catholic (guess who), pretending to be the Devil, is arguing against the existence of an atheist (me).
Not sure why, but this strikes me as funny.
Dan said: “Labels, labels….labels….. Can’t we all just get along? I bet Jesus would be called all sorts of names by persons on both sides – the right & the left – if he were to manifest Himself in these days.”
Yup!
I’m wholeheartedly in favor of getting along.
:)
IGNORE IT
“IGNORE IT”?
Michael, you do realize that “The Devil” is not ~actually~ the devil, don’t you?
Of course, if it were the devil, just think of all the questions you could ask it — questions that no human person could possibly answer. A most interesting conversation that would be!
Madalen,
Don’t waste your time.
The “devil” must be the devil if it uses that name. It also goes to church too because that’s the closest that it will ever get to heaven again.
I would never engage in a written exchange with anyone who uses devil as a handle.
If I need any answers I would pay a visit to my Catechism or to my spiritual director and not to the father of lies
Father Newman’s initial message and his clarification have both disappeared. He wrote as follow-up:
Evidently, this text was also not acceptable and so it was deleted, too.
Some heavy-hitter priests and bishops have come to Father’s Newman’s aid. They are applauding his courageous stand just as others, like the Democrats for Obama, have deplored what he said.
I also know what it is to have my comments removed. Will the priest here at least allow this much to remain posted without deletion?
THE BIG DEE
Yes, Michael, you are right not to read my remarks or to respond to them. You are a righteous man and do not need to entertain the ideas of others or what might be the opposition. You possess the truth and there is nothing to gain by dialogue with those you deem as filled with error.
You would show no tolerance to those who are obviously in league with the devil. But what about Lady G-dless? Has she charmed you? She believes in neither G-d nor the devil. She is pro-abortion, or at least pro-choice. Maybe she should also be banned from this site so as not to pollute the truth that so obviously reigns here?
I am surprised there is so little reaction at this site on the question of Father Newman’s remarks and the diocese’s response. Father Joe notes it as a news item but offers little in the way of commentary.
THE BIG DEE
Thank you Fr. Joe for your truthful answers and insights.
I enjoy it when you make dumb people look even dumber, unintentionally of course.
Fr. Corapi was correct when he said that God put limitations on human intelligence,
but none whatsoever on human stupidity.
Hell is real and hell is forever.
Foolish people continue to gamble with their immortal souls.
THIS MESSAGE BEARS REPEATING
Sister Faustina’s Vision of Hell
“I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence…the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell.” (Diary 741)
The Apostle of Divine Mercy
St. Maria Faustina Kowalska
of the
Congregation of the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy
“Today, I was led by an angel to the Chasms of Hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw:
The First Torture that constitutes hell is:
The loss of God.
The Second is:
Perpetual remorse of conscience.
The Third is
That one’s condition will never change.
The Fourth is:
The fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it. A terrible suffering since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger.
The Fifth Torture is:
Continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own.
The Sixth Torture is:
The constant company of Satan.
The Seventh Torture is:
Horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies.
These are the Tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings.
Indescribable Sufferings
There are special Tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings related to the manner in which it has sinned.
I would have died
There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me.
No One Can Say There is No Hell
Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like…how terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O My Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend you by the least sin.” (Diary 741)
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph we love you save souls
Judging that a politician is in a state of unforgiven sin, and then ascribing his or her supposedly sinful state to those who vote for him or her is ridiculous.
All polticians are chock full of sin, as are all humans.
To say that a certain segment of the population is unworthy of communion, or in a state of damnation, because of their voting choice is idiotic.
We do not bear the sins of those we vote for, those we work for, those we rear, those we marry or anyone else. Supporting a person in a job doesn’t equate to supporting their sins.
If you are going to take a stance like this, the only moral choice then is NEVER to vote. Because otherwise, you’re always choosing the lesser of two evils and thus staining yourself with evil no matter whom you vote for.
Regardless of your views on abortion, this entire argument is ridiculous. Father Newman is not a hero. He is casting judgment of people unilaterally for nothing more than supporting a candidate whom they feel will do a better job of running the country. A secular position, I might add.
Michael said: “Thank you Fr. Joe for your truthful answers and insights. I enjoy it when you make dumb people look even dumber, unintentionally of course.”
Of course.
:)
Now, as far as ignoring the Devil is concerned, that could be kind of a problem. Thing is, he’s inspired the best poetry. What’s written about God and heaven is conspicuously inferior to the stuff written about the Devil and hell:
Nor was his name unheard or unador`d
In ancient Greece; and in Ausonian land
Men call`d him Mulciber; and how he fell
From Heav`n, they fabl`d, thrown by angry Jove
Sheer o`re the Chrystal Battlements: from Morn
To Noon he fell, from Noon to dewy Eve,
A Summers day; and with the setting Sun
Dropt from the Zenith like a falling Star,
On Lemnos th` Aegaean Isle: thus they relate,
Erring; for he with this rebellious rout
Fell long before; nor aught avail`d him now
To have built in Heav`n high Towers; nor did he scape
By all his Engines, but was headlong sent
With his industrious crew to build in hell.
And what’s true for Milton is also true for the much more widely-read Jack T. Chick. Chick’s God is a vague line drawing who remains almost motionless — and emotionless — on his throne: most disturbingly, there is nothing at all where the face should be. Chick’s devil, however, is a lively and vigorous character who clearly enjoys his work. He smirks broadly as he reaches to grasp the doomed sinner in his infernal embrace (”GOTCHA!” he says).
For the matter of that, Michael, I’ve noticed that you also seem much more drawn to meditating on the tortures of hell, than on the delights of heaven. Why is that, do you suppose?
Madalen,
That’s because hell is real and hell is forever.
Many people are going there because they’ve chosen to do evil over good. Jesus is especially saddened by this because of His bitter passion and death. He came to destroy hell.
I delight more in the Eucharist and the Mass than anything else on this Earth.
The people of this day and age deny the existence of hell more than any other generation that came before. This is the old man’s forst trap and he’s catching many souls this way. All you have to do Madalen is to put on the news at 6:00 tonight and you’ll see what I mean.
We ignore the devil by loving God.
We ignore the devil by not giving in to temptation and sin.
We ignore the devil by participating in the sacraments.
We ignore the devil by daily prayer, namely the Holy Rosary.
We ignore the devil by imitating Christ
We are all walking dead. We could all die tomorrow and then what?
DEATH, JUDGMENT, HEAVEN OR HELL
Michael, quoting Saint Faustina: “The Fifth Torture is:
Continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own.
The Sixth Torture is:
The constant company of Satan.
The Seventh Torture is:
Horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies…”
Sounds like my old school bus.
That’s ok by me Fr. Joe, but I still don’t want to find out first hand.
Those words are in her diary for a serious reason……because Jesus wanted them there.
St. Faustina reiterates that the first pain is indeed the eternal loss of God.
Fear isn’t a good thing, but if it helps people to avoid the eternal loss of God then it’s good.
Madalen and Fr. Joe, I wanted to wish you both a nice Thanksgiving.
Peace and love, Michael
Deacon Blue
Anyone who speaks the truth is a hero in the eyes of God.
Anyone who lies is the son or daughter of the father of lies.
Fr. Newman is modern day John the Baptist….a voice crying out in the wilderness.
Look at all of the notoriety that this event drew. It tells me that the Holy Spirit is stil alive and well in the church and in Fr. Newman.
Look at how he is suffering now because of this. It tells me that his message is geniune.
All good things have a price and carry a consequence. Remember that St. John the Baptist was beheaded.
How many people heard of Fr. Jay S. Newman before this took place? This is nothing new. His message has been repeated over and over throughout the ages. I wonder if any of our Bishops would have rebuked St. John the Baptist too? I don’t need a Catechism to tell me that they were wrong to rebuke him.
Fr. Newman told the truth and ignorance is still evil.
“Repent because the Kingdom of Heaven is indeed at hand.”
The denial of sin is the worst sin and what is at stake is everything. That’s a fact that is too risky for this poor sinner.
When we receive the Sacred Body and Blood of Jesus, we also receive the other members of the Holy Trinity and everyone else in Heaven. Those in Heaven are perfectly united to the Holy Trinity. It stands to reason.
This is why we should never come forward to receive our Lord in a state of mortal sin.
Heaven and hell are two different places and Fr. Newman was right.
I meant being united in a mystical way as in the mystical body of Christ.
Sorry for not being specific.
We are united by the second person of the most Blessed Trinity in the Eucharsit.
Thanks, Michael! I hope you have a nice Thanksgiving, too.
:)
Fr. Joe,
I would like to ask a question.
I didn’t catch the outcome of the recent USCCB on whether or not to communicate a politician in favor of abortion.
What was their response? What about the European bishops and the rest of the bishops around the world? Shouldn’t all of them be standing on the same ground?
Colbert,
Do you wear a red Divine Mercy band on your right wrist?
Michael
Thank you Fr. Joe
Where was the outrage against pedophilia? Where were the websites of hate and contempt against the guilty priests? Where’s the outrage about the Iraq war and the lack of health care and education for the same babies you are trying to save. Prolife is about all life and in particular children. The only thing you guys have control over is your own behavior, demonizing dems or PE Obama is not a charge God has given. In fact there is nothing particularlly noble about either political party. God gives us choices, He does not force salvation and surely he does not force people to behave the way we want. PE Obama is not pro abortion, he like other women are not waiting to see how many babies they can kill. I am pro life yet I believe people have a right to choose and it’s my prayer they choose to celibacy till marriage. I am a Spirit-filled, charistmatic Christian and I do believe God’s word is law but I respect people’s right to choose and ultimately be held accountable to God and God alone. I am so glad God’s heart towards the world is such that He sent His son to die for all and yet allows us to choose Him or not. I’m glad that I and even the people on this blog can only be judged by God. Finally the interesting thing is that we can talk about someone else’s sin and demonize them but God will deal with your sin, ( pride, jealousy, anger etc) when you come into His presence.
Jesus will ask you father Joe why did you sit in His judgment seat.
My conscience is clea.r I do not agree with teachings of Catholicism but you have the right to your beliefs.
My issue is the judgmental tone you and those like you take.
The bible teaches that Pride is an abomination and it comes before destruction. It is your pride that I object to.
You have every riight to disagree with a position but you don’t have a mandate from God to demonize an individual.
Sin is sin speak out agains all of it because both political parties are guilty of death of the innocent.
I am 79 years old or full of days. In talking to men I am always amazed that your gender has so many problems with faith because your genes tell you to “be in charge and fix it”
For instance in watching a field of horses the stallion lines up the mares in a row and they dociley let him until he movesback to eating then the mares amble off and look for the best grass to nourish them and their young. Of course, this goeson until all are tired and rest.
I have given you an image. Using this image what suggestions for Life does this stimulate?
Furthering images I am searching for recent images of my catholic religion and seem to come up only with a priest waving a finger at a boy, a fetus of a few months, an old person dying.
I replace these images with the Eucharist, the Holy Family, the Stations of the Cross.
The point I am trying to make is the need for symbolism in praising God. Are image substitutions of Slaughter of the Innocence for the center of our religion replacing the Crucifixcion and Resurrection?
LYNN: You are correct your pride offends God. IF murder is murder then how could you support John McCain/Bush.
FATHER JOE: Again, you are presumptuous. While I favor the position that limits and seeks to eradicate abortion, did I ever tell you or anyone for whom I voted? Like many Americans, I gave the administration the benefit of a doubt when we invaded Iraq because of supposed weapons of mass destruction. The Holy See argued against it, although there was some apparent support for the intervention into Afghanistan. Pope John Paul deplored the death sentence and I came immediately in line with this thinking. As for this last election, I have posted material from bishops and other priests, but all you have are inferences as to my political loyalties. Indeed, some of my conservative Republican friends are angry with me for posting videos I found amusing that poked fun at McCain and Palin. Speaking frankly, I am deeply troubled by Senator Obama’s liberalism and pro-abortion stance; however, like most pro-lifers, Senator McCain did not cause us to swoon, either. As to how I voted, and which I considered the least evil, that remains a matter between me and the Creator. You might have a good guess, but that is all you have. Many of my friends voted for Ron Paul. Sorry, but while you charge me, your own pride is showing.
LYNN: Oh I know you weighed the two and decided one sin is greater than the other. Innocent Iraqi children and people are they not worthy to live. Sin is sin.
FATHER JOE: Why do people like you always divide up our pro-life loyalties? Certainly abortion is a deal breaker, but one can still oppose violence and war, and want progressive social programs to address issues like povery, education and human rights. Many Catholics feel more at home in the Democratic party; but the killing of babies and now the inclusion of perversity as a civil right is hard to stomach. One of my favorite politicians was the late Governor Casey from Pennsylvania. I had the honor of meeting him years ago and knew his boy who attended Georgetown. He was a progressive Democrat who was solidly pro-life. But his own party treated him badly. Had he run for president, I would probably have voted for him. Like so many of us, we really have no home in the current two-party political system.
LYNN: How vocal were you against pedophilia?
FATHER JOE: I was very vocal and paid a price for it. Evidently you have not read this entire Blog. Go back over the years and stop making false accusations. There are many serious issues to be addressed; but don’t forget, ABORTION IS THE ULTIMATE CHILD ABUSE!
LYNN: Your fellow Catholics sin weekly but I suppose the sin of voting for Obama was more than you could stand.
FATHER JOE: Did I say that voting for Obama was a sin? I have included the testimony of many others, and reported about the priest in North Carolina, but where did I say that voting for Obama was a sin. I did report that the KNIGHTS FOR OBAMA was problematical and that is because the Knights of Columbus are forbidden to drag the fraternity into partisan politics.
LYNN: Prayer is more effective than your prideful approach. Were your thoughts pleasing to God today?
FATHER JOE: I pray throughout the day and offer the Liturgy of the Hours. I offer the greatest prayer we have, THE MASS. My parish cared for over 60 families, getting them food for Thanksgiving. I pray and I weep for God’s people… but what have you done? Have you prayed, not to yourself or Obama, but to the God of Life who challenges us to go beyond ourselves and our selfishness? Certainly I am not perfect, but I have sought to please God by my sacrifices and ministry.
LYNN: Were your words full of life or death because God will hold you accountable for the words you speak?
FATHER JOE: I baptized two children and offered several Masses. I gave the bread of life to the children of God. I know reverence for God, but I am not scared or fearful.
LYNN: The point Father Joe is that you passed judgment on voters and you like others decided a person could not love Jesus if they voted for Obama.
FATHER JOE: Again, what is with the presumptions? Certainly I fail to see how God can side with the enablers and promoters of baby killing. I will always call murder a sin! As for the ultimate judgment that you and all of us will face, I said in a previous comment, that is up to the Almighty. That is where your greatest presumption is found, not simply toward me, but that God does not care about our colaboration with the murderers of children.
LYNN: You alone decided that God did not plan PE life, you alone decided that God did not plan for this man to be president, you decided that anyone who supports him needs to repent because of what his position is on abortion.
FATHER JOE: What is PE life? You blame me and yet I am not sure what you are raving about. Look at the flipside of what you are saying! I have mentioned nothing about God either planning for or against the way this election ended. Divine providence includes both an active will and a passive or permissive will. God is not the source of evil, but because of the gift of human freedom, he permits both human and natural evil. It may be that the supporters of Obama should repent for something, but where did I say they should do so for voting for him? Can you read my mind? I do not think so.
LYNN: You tell people that pro choice people can’t wait to kill children, they can’t wait to take a life.
FATHER JOE: I never said that either, and it is a sin to make such false accusations. There are many degrees in the pro-Choice camp. There are those who actively promote and make abortions possible. Some of these people make their livelihood by killing children and lying to their mothers. There are those who do all they can financially and politically to promote abortion. And, there are those who might even deplore abortion and think it is a tragedy, but they will not lift a finger to stop it. Their passivity in the face of evil is what stains their hands with innocent blood.
LYNN: Make no mistake you have attempted to demonize PE Obama and to condemn other people.
FATHER JOE: It is interesting that you use the word “demonize” because I think that demons might be behind the apologists for abortion like yourself. There seems to be a moral blindness, even an invincible ignorance, to the stances and actions people take against the sanctity of life. There is also an incredible double-talk, affirming life but tolerating murder at the same time. It is sickening. What should be obvious is hidden. What so many of us see clearly, is strangely blurred or distorted for others. Yes, I think the devil is very much at work. We struggle not just against flesh-and-blood men but powers and principalities.
LYNN: I don’t agree with either party on every issue but there are many moral issues that God will judge not just abortion. You are so busy trying to control other church members but you don’t allow the Holy Spirit to do His job. It is He who convicts not you.
FATHER JOE: I am a slave to no single party or candidate, either. And, while there is a special gravity given abortion in the hierarchy of moral evils, certainly there are other moral issues that could also cost a person their salvation. As a Catholic priest and one who is faithful to the bishops in union with the Holy Father, I believe the Gospel of Life and our stance against abortion is precisely the work of the Holy Spirit. You cannot pick-and-choose the Christian teachings with which you will agree or disagree. The governance of the bishops and the admonitions of priests is an expression of the Holy Spirit in the Church. If you are not a Catholic then you would not understand this. If you are a Catholic, then you had best return to your catechism. You say that I am convicted; well, now who is the one making judgment, and without ordination and divine sanction, no less! Our Lord was falsely convicted and nailed to the tree of the cross. He came to bring life and so that we could have it more abundantly. He called the children to himself. What Herod could not do to the Christ-child, the Romans (at the bidding of the Pharisees) finished. But the false conviction of the world would not stand. Our Lord would raise himself from the grave by his own power. His heavenly father overturned the false verdict and we can confidently trust the promises of Jesus. I may stand convicted of many things, but my labors for the unborn and in opposition to the murder of unborn children will not be counted among them. If you cannot see the difference between us then I must truly weep for you.
LYNN: Finally my judgment is just fine, the same Holy Spirit that greets me in the morning is the same Holy Spirit that guides me daily.
FATHER JOE: The fragmentation and division in Protestantism is also falsely attributed to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You would make the Third Person of the Trinity into a schizophrenic. Not everyone can be right and still claim inspiration. Personal inspiration about such things does not work if it is outside the mind of the living Church established by Jesus Christ. The trouble is that today, even many Catholics, are more formed by the spirit of the world than by the Spirit of God. And as I said, there are also probably demonic spirits at work, feigning God.
LYNN: God Bless you Father Joe
FATHER JOE: And you.
LYNN: LOL you are funny Father Joe.
FATHER JOE: Sometimes, yes, but lately I have been deadly serious.
LYNN: There’s nothing schizoid about my relationship with God.
FATHER JOE: No, not you, I meant that everyone seems to regard their religious views as inspired by the Holy Spirit, no matter how much their opinions are at odds with one another. Catholics do not believe that teachings of faith are relative, rather they are objective and largely immutable.
LYNN: I do not agree with Catholics especially those who pray to Mary but that’s not my issue.
FATHER JOE: All prayer finds its proper source in God. The veneration (not worship) of Mary and the saints takes nothing away from God; rather, it is an expression of the corporate reality of the Church and the communon of the saints.
LYNN: It is clear that you believe that your way of approaching things is correct and I have my position. We will never agree except to say that murder is wrong and God is Awesome.
FATHER JOE: This is probably so.
LYNN: As a therapist the sexually abused children i see often times wish they were dead.
FATHER JOE: As one who has also counseled hurting people, I am aware of such pain and trauma, too.
LYNN: You seem to express degrees of sin one being more horrific than another. I don’t because God doesn’t.
FATHER JOE:
Even Jesus speaks about the unpardonable sin. Catholics distinguish between mortal (most grevious) sin and venial (lesser) sin. There are some sins so serious (mortal), that if left unrepented, can cost us our salvation in heaven: 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 1:8; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:16; Rev. 22:15. Other verses:
1 John 5:16-17: “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal.”
John 19:11: “‘. . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.’”
Luke 12:47-48: “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.” (cf. Lev. 5:17, Lk. 23:34)
LYNN: There are varying consequences but sin is sin.
FATHERJOE: All sin is an offense against God, but there are both degrees of sin and consequences based upon these degrees. A mortal sin requires three conditions: it must be a serious matter (an act so terrible that it signifies a hatred or turning one’s back utterly against God); we must know it is wrong; and we must freely will it. A venial or lesser sin implies a sin that is not death-dealing and/or one which manifests a profound orientation away from God. The difference is like a slip because of weakness (venial) and the jumping off a high cliff (cliff). One might sprain your ankle; the other will kill you. They are different kinds of acts.
LYNN: There’s an interesting youtube featuring white supremacists plotting to kill PE Obama. They feed on hateful words/labels so I’m sure they enjoy reading blogs that encourage such hateful labels/words.
FATHER JOE: Apparently, you are not a very nice person. You close by forcing the taint of false guilt by association. You charge me with things I never directly said and then make a slur of racism with videos I have never seen and would never post. This particular post is not hateful. I have tried to keep my remarks truthful. I am sorry you will not or cannot see the difference. I hope you are a better counselor than you are a theologian. I wish you well with your labors.
LYNN: It has been interesting chatting with you, enjoy your crusade against PE Obama.
FATHER JOE: Could it be that you cannot distinguish between my remarks and those of others? I have no crusade against Obama. I have serious disagreements with him but I can hope that things might change. I will pray for him as I will pray for you. He will be the president of the United States, at least if he comes forward with a certified birth certificate from Hawaii to Supreme Court Justice Thomas by December 5. As such, his office will command respect, regardless as to whether one voted for him or not. It may be that you are too much his partisan to read my words in a sober and objective fashion? As I said before, I neither endorsed nor repudiated any political candidate. I do not preach politics and I keep all my votes close to the vest.
LYNN: Remember the bible says we fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities.. God Bless you
FATHER JOE: Do I hear an echo?
A valid birth certificate? Oh you are one of those people I can’t take you seriously. I thought you were truly sincere about your issue being abortion but you really don’t like him. LOL Get use to it we have a BLACK PRESIDENT. he and his BLACK FAMILY will live in the white house designed and built by slaves. Goodbye Father Joe
LYNN: Michael i believe you commented in reponse to one of my posts. You don’t know what motivated me or others to support Obama. I will tell you that abortion is not the only moral issue. You vote the way you want and others will do the same. I am a Spirit filled believer I don’t subscribe to Catholic beliefs as it relates to priest forgiving sin. Man can’t forgive sin when we all need a Savior. I know there is only one God. People were inspired by Obama, inspiration is importanat especially for minorities. American history has been less than kind to minorities at times. I think it grieves God’s heart when a political party mistreats the poor, (i.e.health insurance adequate education, job training) A president can describe him/herself as pro life but govern with venom but i guess thats ok because pro choice is the issue for you.
FATHER JOE:
Given that this is a Catholic site, I always get the last word about Christian teaching. St. Paul, refers to himself and his co-workers as men engaged in the ministry of reconciliation. It is clear also from the writings of the early Church fathers, that the Church indeed understand itself as having the power to absolve sins.
Mark 2:5-11: “Why does this man speak thus? He blasphemes, who can forgive sins, but God.”
Such was the verdict of the Scribes in repudiating Christ’s role as the Messiah, his testimony and authority, and ultimately his divinity. Little did they know, that Christ was indeed the unique Son of God come to save his people. Similarly, those who discount the role of priests today stand in the role of the ancient Scribes in discounting the full ramifications of God coming upon us. Christ’s ministry of forgiving sins is perpetuated in the Church, particularly in the priests who have been specially configured to Christ for this purpose. If Christ’s mercy was a one-time blanket or general affair, then why did he spend so much time going out to individuals, liberating them from demons and forgiving their sins? Why then would he give Peter the power of the keys and explicitly tell him and the other apostles that they might loosen and bind from sin? “‘I will give you [Peter] the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’” (Matthew 16:19-20). When speaking about the referral of a sinful brother to the Church, Matthew repeats this teaching: “‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’” (Matthew 18:18). Only God can forgive sins, but he has made priests living vehicles, instruments of his mercy. After his death, the resurrected Lord appeared to his disciples, and the context makes clear that we are talking about his apostles in the locked upper room. Christ extends his peace to them: “‘As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (John 20:21-23).
Acts 10:43: “To Him all the prophets bear witness, that through His name all who believe in Him may receive forgiveness of sins.”
These words belong to Peter and come just before he is challenged for entering the homes of uncircumcised Gentiles and the issue of their baptism. People given the saving faith of Jesus come to baptism which brings forgiveness of sins. The sacramental life, and especially confession, makes possible our steadfastness in God’s grace and mercy. The absolution prayer used by the Church today acknowledges that it is “through the death and resurrection of his Son” that reconciliation is made with God. Further, the Holy Spirit continues to work among us “for the forgiveness of sins.” Then it takes note that Christ continues his saving work “through the ministry of the Church,” and we invoke the Almighty to shower upon the penitent his “pardon and peace.” Speaking in the first person, as he does at the altar during the Mass consecration, the priest absolves the person of his sins in the holy and triune “name” of God.
MADALEN:
Father Joe wrote: “God is not the source of evil, but because of the gift of human freedom, he permits both human and natural evil.”
But the Bible says! Isaiah ch45 v7: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Also, Lamentations ch3 v38: “Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?”
FATHER JOE: Every bible translation is the beginning of an interpretation. A better rendering of Isaiah 45:7 is as follows: “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe, I, the Lord, do all these things.” First, remember the context. The Jews were a conquered nation. Because of their infidelity God had punished the chosen by allowing them to be conquered and scattered (the Babylonian captivity). It is this evil and sense of loss the inflicted God’s people. The Persian king Cyrus would allow them to return to Jerusalem and to rebuild their Temple. Second, this “woe” or “evil” in the verse is understood strictly within God’s permissive will. God sometimes allows evil for the sake of greater good. But, he does not directly intend it. Third, sometimes evil is simply defined as human loss or suffering. When God punishes the rebellious, this is not considered true evil but simply as divine judgment or retribution. The only element that modifies such judgment (which we deserve as sinners) is divine mercy (undeserved). The freedom to love or not to love is the trade off for allowing evil.
MADALEN: Well, it stands to reason. Assuming the existence of a God, and assuming that there is some quality corresponding to our notion of evil, then at least one of two things must be true. Either God, being the first cause of all Existence, must be the ultimate origin of evil — or there must be more than one god.
FATHER JOE: No, both Judaism and Christianity teach that human rebellion is the source for human evil and natural disharmony. We corrupted or violated freedom by choosing that to which we have no right. I suppose you could say that material reality itself, the status of the created order, is altered. More about this would take us far afield from the topic here. The monotheistic definition of God will not tolerate multiple deities given that God possesses all perfections as proper to himself. You cannot have two all powerful entities. That is why the pagans defined gods differently from the Judeo-Christian tradition. There are other spiritual entities, they might even have enormous power and intellect, but they do not have supreme dominion. This is where a character like the Devil comes in. He is a creature above us in the hierarchy of being, but not divine. Often he is associated with evil and its origins; however, not without the cooperation of the first man and woman.
MADALEN: Regardless of whether evil is a real entity or merely the absence of God/good, the ability to add something entirely new (evil, in this case) to Existence, ~and~ the ability to remove part of Existence by creating an absence of the omnipresent God, are both attributes of godhood.
FATHER JOE: Evil is not an entity. The Devil is not absolute evil, although he is sometimes described as evil personified. As a creature kept in existence by God’s power, there is an element of goodness that he can never escape. The divine spark even keeps in existence the damned souls of hell. Evil is the privation of a good that should be present. It might also be described as the misdirection of some element or potency. For instance, the marital act between a husband and wife is a holy thing and, for Christians, an expression of Christ’s covenant with us. However, sexual acts between non-married persons, while mechanically the same, are deemed as very different acts. The latter cannot signify that for which it was ordered. It becomes an evil act. God can draw away something of his presence from those who hate him and who damn themselves; but, this activity is not complete or absolute. One might forfeit divine grace, but God does not annihilate the beings he has created.
MADALEN: Either there is one god who created good and evil, or good and evil were created by two different gods.
FATHER JOE: What you posit is impossible in the Christian context. God is defined by his absolute perfections: all knowing, omnipotent, all loving, omnipresent, and eternal. Perfection is understood as a singularity or oneness. These perfections can be shared to some lesser degree but there can be no other origin. Further, God is not a created being. Rather, he is the source of being or existence. He is the divine “to be” who is the source for all that there is. His role with evil is in reference to the rebellion of creatures, angelic and human. Again, his providence permits evil but never directly intends evil. There is only one God and he is the source of all good. There is no privation or evil within him.
MADALEN: This is all hypothetical, of course.
FATHER JOE: Hypothetical for you, but we are talking about articles of faith for Catholics. Please remember that this is the site of a Catholic priest.
Lynn are you so certain that there aren’t varying degrees of the horror of sin? Hmmm……. Let’s see, Would you be more upset if your spouse THOUGHT about a sexy co-worker therefore committing adultery in his heart…. Or if your spouse actually physically committed an adulterous act with the co-worker?
Just wondering…..
Dan
The issue with sin (any sin) is that it separates us from God. When we sin we sin against God, against His nature. My argument is that all sin is judged by God no matter what it is. I know people like to say “well at least i didn’t do that” because it makes them feel good. Stop wondering… Dan :) I don’t want my husband thinking or acting on sexual sin but a better question for me would be whether I would want to know that either is going on.
Father Joe,
You don’t get the last word, GOD DOES. Again you like all of us are flawed, you can’t forgive sin nor do you have a mandate to judge it. No man can make us right in God’s eyes except Christ. Christ died for our sins, He alone was the perfect sacrifice. We can only get to God through Christ (John 14:6) Everything in the Bible points to Christ as Savior and forgiver of sin, not man.
Father Joe
Again that birth certificate argument is such a ploy and it is ridiculous. I don’t play the race card is it not a fact that slaves built the white house, is it not a fact that Obama describes himself as being black. No race card just stating the facts. God’s nature, is who He is.
LOL the birth certificate issue it’s so conspiracy theory like. Thank you for allowing my words to stand unedited. Yes this is one of the many ways I express myself.
Sorry I didn’t know this blog was for Q/A only. I am a Spirit-filled believer that disagrees with your beliefs but I had no idea it meant i was an atheist. Perhaps you will edit this. We are representatives of God but there is only one Christ one forgiver of sin. Christ stands alone. It is our responsibility as Christians to point to Christ, to let people know they can go to the throne of grace because of what Christ has done.
Sometimes I’m spirit filled too…. Depends on if I’ve drank any spirits…..
(I think I’m being just a “little-sinful” with this jest)
Dan
lol thanks for jesting (by the way i don’t drink)