The now defunct Andrew Apologetic Ministries has given me permission to post this debate.
The following is in response to the unbelievable claim that Jesuits are nothing more than sworn “hit men” of the Holy See. While Lou is usually more intelligent than his friend Nicholas in his argumentation, here is a position that illustrates how thoroughly the intellect can be perverted by prejudice. I have omitted his material which is largely copied from an anti-Catholic website.
(Earlier posts not saved.)Let me repeat what I said before:
Pope Paul III confirmed the new religious order in “Regimini Militantis Ecclesiae” (1540). The aim of the Society was “to fight (spiritually) for God under the standard of the Cross and to serve only the Lord and the Roman Pontiff, his Vicar on earth.” The fourth vow was TO OBEY WITHOUT HESITATION (“sine ulla tergiversatione aut excusatione”) EVERY COMMAND GIVEN BY THE POPE FOR THE SALVATION OF SOULS AND THE SPREAD OF THE FAITH.
Religious vows are usually brief and go straight to the point.
Jesuits did not seek to exterminate Protestants (and ‘Liberals’ would not have been a word in their vocabulary in days of old). The business about the dagger and the communion wafer is absolutely blasphemous and would never have been condoned. Listen to the nonsense you copy: ” . . . and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants’ heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, . . . ” Please, are you too far gone to see that this is a BIG lie?
Bits and pieces have been blended with KNOW KNOTHING (the political movement) propaganda. It is true that St. Ignatius insisted upon unconditional obedience to the Pope, as to Christ himself. However, this had to always be understood within the moral code of Christ and what it meant to be a Christian. He insisted that the Society function “as an old man’s walking stick, or as a cadaver (dying to self).
St. Ignatius writes in his FORMULA OF THE INSTITUTE (which had to be accepted by the Order):
“All who make the profession in this Society should understand at the time, and furthermore keep in mind as long as they live, that this entire Society and the individual members who make their profession in it are campaigning for God under faithful obedience to His Holiness Pope Paul III and his successors in the Roman Pontificate. The Gospel does indeed teach us, and we know from the orthodox faith and firmly hold, that all of Christ’s faithful are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their head and as the Vicar of Jesus Christ. But we have judged nevertheless that the following procedure will be supremely profitable to us and to any others who will pronounce the same profession in the future, for the sake of our greater devotion in obedience to the Apostolic See, of greater abnegation of our wills, and of surer direction from the Holy Spirit. In addition to that ordinary bond of the three vows, we are to be obliged by a special vow to carry out whatever the present and future Roman Pontiffs may order which pertains to the progress of souls and the propagation of the faith; and to go without subterfuge or excuse, as far as in us lies, to whatsoever provinces they may choose to send us.”
This testimony would be integral to the fourth vow and Jesuit formation.
Until recently, you did not even know who the founder of the Jesuits actually was. I had to correct you. You are no expert on this matter, but show no inhibition about casting dispersion upon them, nonetheless.
I will leave you with the prayer of St. Ignatius, maybe you can learn something from this Jesuit:
Take, Lord, and receive
All my liberty, my memory, my intellect,
And all my will–
All that I have and possess.
You gave all that to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.
All is yours.
Dispose of it according to your will.
Give me your love and grace.
Those will be enough for me.